Breguet's Pre-1914 Challenge #130

[aerohydro]

Originally Posted by Rod_Filan

My guess is Ján Bahýľ is Slovakian and Bahily János is Hungarian

I concur. My searches, using both names, yields the same year of birth and year of death (1865, 1915), so they're one and the same person.

Paul

[Rod_Filan]

I think I have it.

In 1895 a Mexican national temporarily residing in New York named Estanislao Caballero de los Olivos, in addressing torque and stability problems, designed a tandem rotor helicopter with wings.

I haven't found the patent, but it's for an elliptical heavier-than-air vertical takeoff flying machine granted to De los Olivos in New York.

The Challenge machine is obviously a somewhat re-designed, improved working model based on his 1895 patent...

The De los Olivos flying machine of 1904.

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Cheers

[aerohydro]

The De los Olivos flying machine of 1904.

Erm, no.

You are after US Patent #542100.

It was also patented in the United Kingdom (1895 Patent no. 7271).

The balloon envelope, shown in the patent illustrations, is a bit misleading. The text for the flying machine patent makes it clear that the balloon is there only if the rotors are not sufficient in themselves to keep the machine aloft.

Paul

[aerohydro]

Well, so far we know that:

• It's an American flying machine
• It dates from 1904
• The design (or at least a variant of it) was patented, but not in 1904
• It's not listed anywhere within AeroFiles.

New clues:

• It's steam-powered.
• And the inventor was also granted a patent for the steam engine. Both the flying machine and steam engine patents were granted in the same year.

Once someone answers the quiz, I'll upload a small cache of material I have on this otherwise anonymous airship.

Cheers,
Paul

[Rod_Filan]

Originally Posted by aerohydro

Erm, no.

You are after: US Patent #542100.

Arrrrrrrrg!!!

No wonder I couldn't find that patent! It has a friggin balloon attached to it! Geez... I looked for it during the entire baseball game using HTA CCL codes but never LTAs.

Okay... I'm breathing normally now. Steam-powered ...steam-powered ...steam-powered ...steam-powered ...steam-powered ...

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Cheers

[Rod_Filan]

I'm not doing so good on this one one tonight Paul. But I haven't given up yet...
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Cheers

[aerohydro]

Okay, another recap:

• We know that it is an American steam-powered flying machine dating from 1904.
• That patents, covering the design concept for the airship itself, and for the steam engine, were granted in the same year (which was not 1904).

Time for more clues:

• It was built and tested at a spot north of San Francisco, California.
• The patents (which were granted sometime between 1900 and 1903) have the inventor listing an address in New Mexico as well as in California.

NB: some sources have the craft dating from 1903, but the only contemporary article I've found about it dates from late 1904, so I'm using that year.

Paul

[Rod_Filan]

I might as well throw it out there right now - but I thought of this inventor more than two days ago and I'm still not convinced... although the hint of your machine being from north of San Fran makes it hard to ignore... Lyman W. Gilmore Jr.

American steam-powered flying machine. Check.

The design (or at least a variant of it) was patented, but not in 1904. (One of his patent drawings, dated 1898, vaguely resembles the Challenge machine). Check.

He was also granted a patent for a steam engine. Check.

It was built and tested at a spot north of San Francisco, California. (Grass Valley, CA). Check.

It's not listed anywhere within AeroFiles. (Gilmore is, but nothing he built during the early years of his aeronautical career). Check.

The machine I'm exampling dates from 1902, not '03 or '04 AFAIK (claimed by Gilmore to be flown May 15, 1902) but he could have built something a year or two later that Paul has discovered.

Okay, after writing this I'm a little more convinced - mainly because the patent drawing I linked to (its file name is Helicopter.jpg). So that being said, your Challenge photograph represents the:

Gilmore vertical take-off steam-powered monoplane of 1903-04

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Cheers

[aerohydro]

So that being said, your Challenge photograph represents the:
Gilmore vertical take-off steam-powered monoplane of 1903-04

No, it doesn't.

I've tried several times over the years, to find the patent number for the Gilmore helicopter / tandem wing aeroplane, but it's always eluded me. I suspect the patent, though it was drawn up, had either never been submitted or it had not been granted.

When I was referring to a spot north of San Francisco, I wasn't referring to Grass Valley but somewhere else.

Paul

[Rod_Filan]

hmmmm...

(best Jed Clampett impression) Get the gun, Jethro.

(best Billy-Bob Slingblade impression) Paul... you're really startin' ta....uh-hum. I best be thinkin' 'bout it for a while.

(best Terminator impression) I'll be back...

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Cheers