Breguet's Pre-1914 Challenge #131

[Rod_Filan]

Okay...We haven't had a triplane in a while, and this one looks to be as good as the next...



Go at 'er...Good Luck

Scoreboard at the start of Challenge #131:

23.60 Rbailey
18.20 Varese2002
15.80 aerohydro
12.20 Aquilius
8.20 Rod_Filan
8.00 richard B
7.30 matte_kudasai
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
6.00 YavorD
5.50 Airarticles
**************
(those above this section must wait 12 hours before answering,
those below - and everyone else - may answer immediately)
**************
3.30 berman
3.00 Lodzermensch
3.00 joegertler
2.00 sobrien
2.00 Doc
1.10 Froggy
1.00 paolomiana
0.40 Wind In The Wires
0.20 Willi Von Klugermann
0.20 EricGoedkoop

Subjects of previous Challenges can be found at: Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge

The rules of engagement:

1. The thread title must be "Bréguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......".
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....).
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built.
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge.
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion).
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified.
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they belong to the ROYALTY. Once they belong to the ROYALTY they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
10. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitrator in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

[sodium]

hello
I think it is Bokor triplane
ft | bokor triplane | morris park | 1909 | 0378 | Flight Archive
philippe

[Rod_Filan]

You are correct Philippe. This is Morris Bokor's triplane as seen at Morris Park, N.Y., winner of the first money prize in America for design and workmanship independent of performance - a $500 prize awarded by the Aeronautic Society of New York in 1909 - even though it failed to fly.

Bokor had for some months been in the employ of Wilbur R. Kimball (the 8-propeller Kimball biplane) at Morris Park, and built his triplane during his spare hours and on Sundays. In light of his triplane's inability to leave the earth, Bokor made many changes to it and eventually took the machine to Arlington, New Jersey, where it won the $500 prize for excellence of construction. There at North Arlington during the Aero Carnival Week of May 25, 1909 - which featured Baldwin's airship, his newest California Arrow, and two aeroplanes, the other being Victor Ochoa's ornithopter - Bokor made an attempt at flight but could only manage a top speed of 12 mph while running along an unpaved road. The triplane was subsequently taken to Westbury, Long Island, but it never did get off the ground.

I believe Morris Bokor was a Hungarian immigrant who lived in the Bronx in New York - however, I'm unable to say that with certainty at the present time.

Recent activity by members of the Aeronautic Society has resulted in the production of several new aeroplanes at Morris Park, one or two of which have already been given their first trials. At the present time there are completed or under construction upon the society's grounds, a monoplane, four biplanes, and one triplane, as well as a new helicopter.

One of the novel machines now completed, and which has already undergone several tests, is the triplane of Morris Bokor. This machine is shown in one of our illustrations, Its three planes have a spread of 26 feet and a width of 6 1/2, feet, making a total surface of 507 square feet. A 14 x 2 1/2 foot horizontal rudder has 70 square feet additional supporting surface, while the tail, consisting of two pairs of surfaces at a sharp dihedral angle, is 14 feet long and has 72 square feet. The total weight of the machine, with water, oil, and gasoline, and with Mr. Bokor on board is 1,181 pounds, so that the usual ratio of weight to supporting surface *2 pounds to the square foot* is closely adhered to. The upper and lower planes are 6 and 5 feet above and below the middle plane respectively. The inventor's theory as to why less space between the lower and middle planes can be used than is required between the middle and upper one is that the draft of the propellers will draw the air back below the middle plane, and thus tend to check or neutralize the interference of the lower plane. The two propellers, which are driven in opposite directions by chains from the motor, are 8 feet in diameter, with an 11-foot pitch. They are made of wood and have quite narrow blades, covered partly with cloth. The propellers make one revolution to 3 1/2 of the motor. They gave 248 pounds thrust at 500 R.P.M. with the machine held stationary. The motor used is a four-cylinder, 4 x 4-inch, A and B [American & British] four-cycle automobile motor. The inventor claims 38 horse-power for it at 1,800 R.P.M., but this figure is probably somewhat high. The motor alone weighs 310 pounds, but with all accessories including a 15-pound magneto, a 30-pound Livingston radiator, 30 pounds of water, and 34 pounds of fuel and fuel tank, the weight is 419 pounds.

The main feature of the Bokor aeroplane is the use of a pendulum seat for the aviator, which is connected by cables to the ends of the lower plane at the rear. The outer rear parts of this plane are supported upon flexible trusses running along it, and which are in turn carried upon hinged rods extending back from the vertical uprights at the ends of the planes.

When the machine tips to one side or the other the aviator's seat remains horizontal and exerts a pull upon the flexible rear edges of the lower plane, thus giving it the proper inclination to cause the machine to right itself again. Another feature of this aeroplane is the tail, consisting of two large tetrahedral-like cells, which should aid in giving the machine stability. Since the photograph reproduced herewith was taken, the inventor has mounted his aeroplane upon skids. In starting, the whole machine is placed upon a four wheeled chassis, to enable it to run along upon the ground. This chassis is left behind when the machine rises. In all probability, however, a larger engine will have to be installed before the triplane can be made to soar.

Source: Some New American Aeroplanes.

The Bokor Triplane is one of the few American flying machines to be honoured by its issuance as a postcard in France (thanks Kees for finding the card) - and presenting a rare portrait of its inventor, albeit his name was somehow lost in translation - and so it goes that Challenge #132 will be offered by Sodium, from that country.


Scoreboard at the end of Challenge #131 - The Bokor Triplane of 1909 - is:

23.60 Rbailey
18.20 Varese2002
15.80 aerohydro
12.20 Aquilius
8.20 Rod_Filan
8.00 richard B
7.30 matte_kudasai
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
6.00 YavorD
5.50 Airarticles
**************
(those above this section must wait 12 hours before answering,
those below - and everyone else - may answer immediately)
**************
3.30 berman
3.00 Lodzermensch
3.00 joegertler
2.00 sobrien
2.00 Doc
1.10 Froggy
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 sodium
0.40 Wind In The Wires
0.20 Willi Von Klugermann
0.20 EricGoedkoop

-
Cheers, and Go Yankees!

[sodium]

I post the 132
amitiés
philippe

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Rod_Filan

-----

The Bokor Triplane is one of the few American flying machines to be honoured by its issuance as a postcard in France (thanks Kees for finding the card) - and presenting a rare portrait of its inventor, albeit his name was somehow lost in translation - and so it goes that Challenge #132 will be offered by Sodium, from that country.
-----

Still more surprising, another card (different view) was issued in Italy. Morris Bokor was a great communicator, but rather unfortunate in the spelling of his name, as the Italian card got it as Bokov (future historians will break their necks about that name ).



This card sports the proud Morris Bokor in front of his machine. He wears a typical hat, probably not often worn in the USA.

Bokor could be from Hungarian origin as a 1910 Hungarian biplane is known as the Bokor II Wegry. As I am at this late hours not up to my best Hungarian this will have to wait till tomorrow There is at least a possibility that he got back to Hungary (Austro-hungary that is).



Cheers

Kees

[Rod_Filan]

Originally Posted by Varese2002

Bokor could be from Hungarian origin as a 1910 Hungarian biplane is known as the Bokor II Wegry. As I am at this late hours not up to my best Hungarian this will have to wait till tomorrow There is at least a possibility that he got back to Hungary (Austro-hungary that is).

That's what I was wondering - although I hadn't gone so far as to search for him further. There were two things that made me think this way... first off, Bokor seems to have disappeared from the aeronautical record in America after 1909. And secondly, I came across the mention of "the Hungarian giant, the Bokor III".

Now you've presented the Bokor II, which confirms my suspicions somewhat.

More investigation of this fellow is definitely needed.
-
Cheers

[Varese2002]

Sure there is some more research to do about Morris Bokor.

Obviously false information can be seen here about a 1911 Bokor III machine.

There is an Hungarian reference to the existence of the 1910 Bokor II and the 1911 Bokor III. Unfortunately the Hungarian sentence is

1911 Bokor III háromfedelű

where the last word defies any translation I can find.

It is a guess of course what the original Hungarian first name of Bokor was, surely not Morris. But he may have been also Rumanian / Bulgarian.

The administration of Ellis Island of new incomers in the USA gives 131 Bokors.

Searching will have to continue.

Cheers

Kees

[Aquilius]

Hey guys,

I stumbled over these Bokor designes quite a while ago.
And not only Bokor also the other early aviation of Hungary has to be further researched, while most of the austrian part of the double-empire is well documented. Thanks to R. Keimel but not only him.

What ever there is written on the tail of this biplane it is nothing that would hint to Bokor by any chance. I turned it a few times but could not get something useful out of it, even in hungarian language. Therefore I think it is rather a name of a designer, which I don't know. (Maybe "DIOK No.II" )

Unfortunately Herb Sieger didn't answer me and ceased to update his page one year ago. Just I wouldn't start to work on all the countless questionable entries.

The US machine is pictured again at Herb Siegers list in the 1908 section,
built by a "T. Bocker" - from a source that is not available anymore.

The name Bokor is most likely of hungarian origin. There it appears more often than anywhere else.

By the way "háromfedelű" means triplane.

három = three, the latter part is referring to wings.
Complete it should read “háromfedelű repülőgép“ – triplane aircraft.


Cheers

Aquilius

[Varese2002]

This is a whole list of Hungarian flying machines from 1909 - 1914, not necessarily complete and/or consistent. Texts are in hungarian of course.

About the target piece here - Bokor II and Bokor III - it can be assumed that the roman numbers are probably allotted later to seperate the different machines. The Bokor I would then be the Triplane built by "Morris" Bokor in the USA.

Az itt szereplõ magyar gépek a következõk:
1909 Faludy III
1909 Svachulay Kolibri I
1910 Adorján "Libelle"
1910 Adorján "Strucc"
1910 Bokor II
1910 Horváth 1B
1910 Kolbányi I
1910 Kvasz I
1910 Lányi kétfedelû
1910 Létai I
1910 Pfitzner
1910 Rajki egyfedelû
1910 Svachulay Albatrosz I
1910 Szárics I
1910 Székely I (nincs fénykép)
1910 Tóth I (nincs fénykép)
1910 Zsélyi egyfedelû
1910 Zsélyi II
1911 Bokor III háromfedelû
1911 Horváth IIA és IIB
1911 Horváth IIIA
1911 Király-Berkovics egyfedelû
1911 Kolbányi II
1911 Kolbányi III
1911 Kvasz II 1911 Svachulay Albatrosz II
1911 Svachulay Kolibri II
1911 Szárics II
1911 Székely II tolólégcsavaros kacsa (nincs fénykép)
1911 Takács I
1911 Tóth II (nincs fénykép)
1911 Vass egyfedelû
1912 Csók egyfedelû
1912 Erdõdy kétfedelû
1912 Erdõdy egyfedelû
1912 Gróth II
1912 Horváth IIIB
1912 Horváth IIIC "Fecske" (3-nézeti rajz)
1912 Horváth kétüléses katonai egyfedelû
1912 Kolbányi IV
1912 Kolbányi V (3-nézeti rajz)
1912 Kvasz III
1912 Kvasz IV (nincs fénykép)
1912 Kvasz-Torsz "Godron" kétfedelû (nincs fénykép)
1912 Lányi kétfedelû
1912 Létai II
1912 Létai III
1912 Létai IV
1912 Prodam I
1912 Prodam II 2- kétüléses 1912 Reiter I és II
1912 Surányi I
1912 Svachulay Albatrosz III
1912 Svachulay Kolibri III (nincs fénykép)
1912 Székely III "Az Újság" (nincs fénykép)
1912 Takács II
1912 Tóth III
1912 Zsemlye egyfedelû
1913 Kvasz V (nincs fénykép)
1913 Kvasz VI (3-nézeti rajz)
1913 Lazarusz I
1913 Létai-V kétüléses
1913 Prodam III katonai kétüléses
1913 Surányi II
1913 Svachulay Albatrosz IV
1913 Svachulay Albatrosz V (nincs fénykép)
1913 Svachulay Kolibri IV (nincs fénykép)
1913 Székely IV kétüléses "parasol" egyfedelû
1913 Székely VI "BüBü" (nincs fénykép)
1913 Takács III
1913 Takács IV
1913 Tóth IV (nincs fénykép)
1913 Tóth V (nincs fénykép)
1913 Zsélyi II

Incidentally quite a lot of work to decipher all these machines Most of them little known, to say the least.

Cheers

Kees

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Aquilius

----

What ever there is written on the tail of this biplane it is nothing that would hint to Bokor by any chance. I turned it a few times but could not get something useful out of it, even in hungarian language. Therefore I think it is rather a name of a designer, which I don't know. (Maybe "DIOK No.II" )

-----

This picture was copied sometime / somewhere from the internet as an interesting machine to be identified later. The picture file was named '1910Bokor II Biplane Wegry.jpg', no further information was given. I figured out that Węgry is the Polish word for Hungary.

Although not a 100% statement this makes it at least likely that we are looking at a Hungarian machine (dating from 1910).

I enlarged the tail somewhat and could see 6 (six) letters, which could be BENOIO or BENOID or BEHOIO or BEHOID. It could be an abbreviation or a firms name. In my opinion it is not a prerequisite that the name BOKOR is on the machine, a more likely candidate would be the sponsor or the builder or some form of advertising.



Unfortunately all I have is a rather dubious description (jpg name ....) of the machine on the picture (Bokor II). As Bokor was evidently very fond of triplanes (his USA machine and the hungarian Bokor III machine), this is a quite different way to go, even with a Pfeilflügel visible.

Cheers

Kees