Breguet's pre-1914 ID Challenge #138

[Lodzermensch]

Hi,

Pictures published in The Taube at War show the central struts almost parallel and finished with arch, like in a picture attached in the first post of the challenge. I must agree that the first photo introduced in post No 6 (described as Bristol-Halberstadt-Taube I) shows an airplane which seems not to match the subject of this challenge. Please note the struts, the shape of fuselage and side radiators.

Cheers

Marek

[Varese2002]

I think there is some more research to be done on the names of the company, when I read

In Germany a different arrangement was made, and on 28 February [1911] the Deutsche Bristtol Werke with a capital of 200,000 Marks (half subscribed by the Bristol Directors), was formed to manufacture Bristol aeroplanes under licence and to operate a flying school at Halberstadt, supervised by Bristol instructors. The Deutsche Bristol-Werke later came under pressure from the German government to produce aeroplanes of new design rather than Bristol types, so the licensing agreement fell into abeyance and was formally cancelled on 23 June 1914.

Source: Barnes, C.H. Bristol aircraft since 1910. Putnam pp. 21-22.

Some points -

• When was the Halberstädter Flugzeugwerke GmbH founded ? According to Lange sometime in 1913.

• There never existed a Bristol-Halberstadt firm, there was Deutsche Bristol Werke and Halberstädter Flugzeugwerke, at some time parallel (1913 / 1914) but sperated legally

• The first Taube (I) seems from the picture to use the patents granted to Coanda in France, England, Switserland and probably Germany (not searched out) in 1911 / 1912.

• IMO the Roman numbers are much later allotted to different Halberstadt Taubes, to differentiate them.

I also read through the book of Werner Hartmann [Halberstadt - Luftfahrtgeschichte in einer deutschen Fliegerstadt], but it did not became more clear to me how the relation Bristol <=> Halberstadt was.

Consulting the indexes of Flugsport there are references to Bristol Eindecker in the years 1911, 1912, 1913 and 1914. Till 1914 there are references to the Halberstädter Flugplatz and 1914 brings us a reference to the Halberstadt Taube. There are no references to a Bristol-Halberstadt. In the volume of 1916 is the first reference (in Flugsport) to the Halberstädter Flugzeugwerke in the section Firmennachrichten.

Have a fine day.

Kees

[Aquilius]

Boys, it seems I've been fooled here again by a wrong caption.

The picture looks indeed more like a Bristol-Coanda Monoplane.

But rather it was brought from England it may be possible in the "Deutsche Bristol Werke" in Halberstadt also this type was licence-built, in addition to the 1911 Bristol Monoplane that got in Halberstadt the nickname "Bristol-Schwein".

In the cockpit are the flight teacher von Gienanth and the (well) known pilot from Halberstadt Wolfram Paschen in the rear. The latter did not enter any aircraft without his knitted hat with a long pheasant fether, a souvenir from his girlfriend.



And Kees, to answer your question, the Taube aircraft built by the "Deutsche Bristol Werke" were named "Bristol-Halberstadt". Maybe to refer it beeing a design from the german branch of Bristol.

The book is not that well structured, but it tells the story of the Company.

page 33: (roughly summarized)

There was a company "Behrens & Kühne" in Oschersleben building aircraft tents and hangars since 1911. Herman Behrens was advertising his company in Berlin when he was asked if he couldn't built aircrafts for the army as well.

Max Heckel (don't know who he was) advised Behrens to get in contact with Bristol. Then among different cities (Magdeburg, Braunschweig,...) Halberstadt was choosen to built the subsidary and in April 1912 the "DEUTSCHE BRISTOL-WERKE m.b.h." was entered in the commercial register. (no specific date given)
Hermann & Gustav Behrens, Eduard Schnebel and Kurt Stockhausen were the shareholder of 55 000 RM, another 200 000 RM was was hold by Bristol.
In May the company took over the "Halberstadter Flugplatzgesellschaft".

page 46:

In July 1913 the name was changed to "HALBERSTÄDTER FLUGZEUGWERKE Gmbh" and the fund was raised to 400 000 RM, with the same shareholders.

later nothing.

Bristol was still part of the company until the outbreak of WW1 and I think it was then separated, like many other international enterprises.

If the designes until then were called "Bristol-Halberstadt" or simply "Halberstadt" may differ in contemporary publications.


Cheers

Aquilius

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Aquilius

Boys, it seems I've been fooled here again by a wrong caption.

The picture looks indeed more like a Bristol-Coanda Monoplane.

But rather it was brought from England it may be possible in the "Deutsche Bristol Werke" in Halberstadt also this type was licence-built, in addition to the 1911 Bristol Monoplane that got in Halberstadt the nickname "Bristol-Schwein".

In the cockpit are the flight teacher von Gienanth and the (well) known pilot from Halberstadt Wolfram Paschen in the rear. The latter did not enter any aircraft without his knitted hat with a long pheasant fether, a souvenir from his girlfriend.

-----

Pictured is the Bristol Coanda Monoplane 80 hp Gnôme in its 1913 version a special example (Bristol No. 153) was exhibited in the Olympia Aero Show 1913. This machines featured wheel brakes and armoured glass fuselage windows.

A batch of three Monoplanes was despatched to the Deutsche Bristol-Werke in April 1913 [Nos. 150, 151, 153], but 151 and 153 were returned to Filton in August 1913.

Bristol had also opened the Societa Italiana Bristol Aeroplani on December 31, 1912 who controlled the licence building of the monoplane in Italy. License building was done by Caproni & Faccanoni (at Vizzola Ticino). A complete skeleton Monoplane was delivered as a pattern. Only two were built by Caproni, which were judged

.. these were generally satisfactory in workmanship, but the warp control was found to be immovable and on examination it was found that the ribs had been bolted to the spars, thus destroying the flexibility of the wing which was an essential feature of the design.

There is no information given about licence building in Halberstadt or the delivery of a pattern machine of a Monoplane. More positive information is needed to endorse a claim for licence building in Germany.

So, we are not looking at a Taube, we are looking at an English built Bristol Coanda Monoplane version 1913 fitted with a 80 hp Gnôme. Which brings the clue about the Taube I - IV of the Halberstadt firm.

Herr Paschen is described in Flight as a pilot of the German Bristol School here. He is portrayed before a Bristol Coanda BR.7 Tractor Biplane, together with a whole group of fliers doing training at the Bristol Flying School at Amesbury.

Bristol had probably difficulties already in 1912, but sure in 1913 by training German military personnel in Halberstadt. The top German brass was against this dependency, but probably even more with a foreign controlled firm building machines for use by the German military. So seperately out-of control of Bristol the Halberstädter Flugzeugwerke was started in 1913, who built no Bristols in licence but started designing and building their own brand of Taubes. The first Taube was somewhat influenced by the four-wheel landing gear patented by Coanda, but I don't know if that was infringement of the patent.

Most data comes from the Putnam book on Bristol authored by C.H. Barnes.

Do also look at the description of the Bristol Coanda Monoplane in Flight (3 pages) here.

Have a good day, I must take time off for the difficult Breguet recognitions.

Kees

[Aquilius]

Thanks again Kees! Outstanding exploration!


I had not thought Bristol send aircrafts again to Halberstadt.

Just the conditions on the airfield were not the best at this time.
And when the flying school of the "Deutsche Bristol Werke" was contracted to train military pilots for money out of the "National Flugspende" they did need training aircrafts.

Probably also for this reason on 1. December 1912 the "MILITÄR-FLIEGERSCHULE Halberstadt GmbH" was separated from the aircraft factory.


And yes, Paschen has been in Bristol for 8 Weeks in March/April 1913, immediately after he got his pilot brevet on 17. Feb. 1913 (No.362)
It is told he visited the Bristol factory "for a propper look around".

And he schould have done the maiden flight with the first Halberstadt Taube in July that year.

So you found out the aircraft were Eberhard von Gienath and Wolfram Paschen are sitting in was a british built. That makes sense. I did not believe this type was built in Halberstadt. But the photo with the german flight teacher has been taken in Halberstadt.


Thanks for you research!


Cheer

Aquilius