Breguet's pre-1914 ID Challenge #138

[Aquilius]

Ladies & Gentlemen, welcome to another round of Breguet’s pre-1914 Aircraft ID Challenge!

Did I tell you that I like Taube-aircrafts? Probably more than once…

Anyway, I have selected a new bird for you to recognise.
Let’s start with this in-flight picture:

Question remain the same as usual, who, where, when, what?


The Scoreboard at the end of challenge 137 – Martin Pusher 1910 - is:

23.60 Rbailey
18.20 Varese2002
16.80 aerohydro
13.20 Aquilius
9.20 Rod_Filan
8.00 richard B
7.30 matte_kudasai
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
6.00 YavorD
5.50 Airarticles
**************
(those above this section must wait 12 hours before answering,
those below - and everyone else - may answer immediately)
**************
3.30 berman
3.00 Lodzermensch
3.00 joegertler
3.00 sobrien
2.00 Doc
2.00 sodium
1.10 Froggy
1.00 paolomiana
0.40 Wind In The Wires
0.20 Willi Von Klugermann
0.20 EricGoedkoop

Previous Challenges: Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge

The rules of engagement:

1. The thread title must be "Bréguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......".
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....).
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built.
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge.
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion).
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified.
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they belong to the ROYALTY. Once they belong to the ROYALTY they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
10. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitrator in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

Good luck!

Aquilius

[Lodzermensch]

Hello,

I would say Halberstadt Taube because of four-wheel undercarriage. This type was built for training purposes by Halberstadt Flugzeugwerke in 1912.

Regards

Marek

[LewisS]

Could it be a Goedecker Eindecker, ( Tauben)?

regards

Lewis

[Lodzermensch]

Hi,

I have to correct my answer.

Actually, an aircraft company later known as Halberstadt Werke GmbH, existed under the name Deutsche Bristol-Werke Flugzeug GmbH till September 1914. The plane was designed by Hans Burkhard. The first prototype was built in 1913. First Halberstadt Taube also known under designation Taube III was powered by a 100 HP Daimler D.I engine. The next one was Taube IV of 1914 powered by 75 HP Daimler.

So, my answer is Halberstadt Taube III of 1913.

Cheers

Marek

[richard B]

It is one of the few BRISTOL-HALBERSTADT TAUBE I Militär Schuleindecker,built in 1913.

Only the Taube I had this four wheels undercarriage (BTW ,it's my clue ),copy of the undercarriage of Bristol planes .
Engine was a 100hp Mercedes DI

The Taube II ,III,& IV had normal undercarriages, II & III having the Röver 's patented type fuselage .

Cheers
Richard

[Aquilius]

Well, Marek seems to have fixed his computer problems and Richard was carefully reading the posts of the Röver-challenge #111.

Unfortunately Lewis, you have been on the wrong track.


But some more facts to our challenge plane.
Maybe I should let the pictures speak:

Richard is right. Only the "Bristol-Halberstadt Taube I" had this typical Coandă-style undercarriage. But so far I know it was not powered by an inline engine. Looks like a 7-cylinder Gnôme/Oberursel of maybe 70/80 hp.(differences in this and questioned picture is the missing bridge below the wing)

All further developements had a two wheel landing gear. And responsible for Type III & IV was Dipl.-Ing. Karl Theiß who came from Albatros in the second half of 1913, when the Halberstädter Flugzeugwerke were formed out of the Deutsche Bristol Werke - seeing this aircraft this is no big surprise.


The Bristol-Halberstadt Taube I was mainly a Bristol-Coandă Monoplane fittet with Taube-wings. So far I know only a few copies were used in the company flying school.
It was designed (or modifyed) by the swiss Hans Burkhard in 1913, who flew with Nieuport, worked for Rumpler and then Bristol, where he should redesign the Bristol Monoplane for using the german 100 hp Mercedes engine.
I think the result was the "Bristol-Halberstadt Taube II" with two-wheel landing gear, but I can not prove this with a picture.


…to be continued

[Aquilius]

My source is the book:
"Halberstadt - Luftfahrtgeschichte in einer deutschen Fliegerstadt"
by Werner Hartmann, Flugzeug Publikations GmbH.

While this book is nicely illustrating the aviation story of Halberstadt and its surrounding, it does not come with specifications or characterizations of a single aircraft type - maybe apart from the Röver Eindecker.


Here I have to add some doubts about the statement all Tauben II, III & IV were built with the "Röver-Wickelrumpf" after seeing the patent Kees showed us before.
In an article from the Aerokurier magazine in 1963 about Burkard is told:

„In den Jahren 1913 und 1914 brachte Burkhard in Halberstadt noch zwei interessante Konstruktionen heraus, einen Eindecker und einen Doppeldecker, beide mit Schalenrümpfen. Diese als „Wickelrümpfe“ bezeichneten Konstruktionen gingen auf ein Patent von Röver zurück und entstanden aus Furnierstreifen, die über eine entsprechende Kegelform gewickelt und verleimt wurden. Als komplette Schale abgezogen und eingebaut, verfügten sie über eine unwahrscheinliche Festigkeit.“

translation:

In 1913 & 1914 Burkhard built in Halberstadt another 2 interesting aircraft, a mono- and a biplane with monocoque fuselages. Those “wrapped hull designes” after the patent by Röver were constructed out of veneer wrapped and glued on a conical form. Removed as a complete hull and fittet [to an aircraft] it was incredibly sturdy.

I added this because it tells the interesting technique how the “Röver-Rumpf” is built. It fits the patent shown and is probably not used with any of the Halberstadt Tauben.

patent link: Breguet's pre-1914 ID Challenge #111
(don’t know how to copy an attachment)

(...an update for all other careful readers of the stuff discovered here at the drome )



Those two Burkhard planes are yet to explore, from my side at least.


Cheers

Aquilius

[Aquilius]

To the points:

Richard was of course right with Bristol-Halberstadt Taube I.
But Marek recognised the Halberstadt design first. While your first post was not very precise, your second spotted little beside the goal, though you mentioned the correct year and designer.

I think it’s only fair to share the score, and Marek, I know how you feel, but accroding to rule 11 the next challenge has to go to Richard!

The scoreboard after challenge #138 – Bristol-Halberstadt Taube I - is

23.60 Rbailey
18.20 Varese2002
16.80 aerohydro
13.20 Aquilius
9.20 Rod_Filan
8.50 richard B
7.30 matte_kudasai
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
6.00 YavorD
5.50 Airarticles
**************
(those above this section must wait 12 hours before answering,
those below - and everyone else - may answer immediately)
**************
3.50 Lodzermensch
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
3.00 sobrien
2.00 Doc
2.00 sodium
1.10 Froggy
1.00 paolomiana
0.40 Wind In The Wires
0.20 Willi Von Klugermann
0.20 EricGoedkoop


Thanks for playing!



Aquilius

[Lodzermensch]

Hello All,

Aquilius,

Thanks for additional information and half a point. Winner or loser, I feel good - particularly with my internet fixed. Anyway 0.5 is much better than nothing.

Unfortunately, the lack of good “paper” sources on early German airplanes is my problem. German books, especially these issued some time ago, are hardly available on Polish market. On the other hand, my primary (and the only) source The Taube at War by P.M. Grosz proved to be not very accurate in this case.

The author introduced only one type of Halberstadt Taube equipped with four-wheel undercarriage. Curiously enough, there are four photos of this plane (page 12 and 13) and all show rather classic "taube" design with in-line engine. Not a single word about aircraft powered by rotary engine. By the way – picture No 49 is very similar to the challenge photograph.

I was trying to find something more on Halberstadt Taube on web sites but the information given by one of these sources was even less accurate (and it was not Wikipedia or something like this).

Thanks again,

Regards

Marek

[richard B]

Bonjour à tous

At first I must say I was not at all influenced by Marek answer :Some minutes after the challenge begining I ID the bird but had to wait 12 hours ...


This challenge is going to show once again how difficult it is to tell the story of lesser known aircraft of pre 1914 period .

I have a german source with pics showing :

1- Bristol-Halberstadt Taube I ,with MERCEDES ,four wheels U.C ,looking like a "normal" taube ,with sides radiator but curiously the central wing struts are near paralel !(Halberstadt-Taube in "Eroberung der Luft" p 86)
----IT'S YOUR CHALLENGE ----,the other pic showing a very different aircraft, very little central struts over the wing ,no side radiators ,if I can trust my glasses

2-Bristol-Halberstadt Taube II ,Röver fuselage fins up and down
3-Bristol_halberstadt Taube III ,Röver fuselage ,big fin up only .
4-Bristol-Halberstadt Taube IV ,your third pic ,"normal taube "
5-Bristol-Halberstadt A I ,mordernised Taube ,in the same way than the Ru C 4c for the earlier Ru Taube

At last ,the second pic shows a BRISTOL monoplane ,with its usual rotary:I am not sure at all it has a Taube wing.

Hoping it will help

Richard