Breguet's pre 1914 ID Challenge No 139

[Rbailey]

Let's see - German, 1910, in Lange - narrows it down to a couple of dozen. North Germany narrows it down - probably not more than a dozen. But most of the descriptions don't help. Looking at the front under fuselage I see a pair of close-set wheels - are these the clue? But we have already seen it - is it a different machine from a designer of a previous challenge?

[Aquilius]

Northern Germany, 1910 in Lange?

If I take "north Germany" as not Berlin and it's surrounding then Lange gives the following possible monoplanes from 1910:

• Heinrich Ahrens (Elmshorn)
• Otto Daus (Hamburg) – 7-cyl. rotary (Gnôme?)
• Arthur Faerber & Co. (Hamburg) – Anzani, seat below the wing
• Goebel (Tapiau/Kaliningrad) – 35 hp Haacke
• Karl Grohmann mono I & II (Hamburg) – 50 hp Argus, cockpit in open fuselage, propeller via chain above
• Heinrich Heitmann Typ IV (Hamburg-Altona) – Grade copy with Delfosse engine
-> this machine was reconstructed by Erich Schrader near Breslau (Wrocław)
• Wilhelm Krumsiek (Hamburg) – tractor, open frame, seat in high position
• Josef Suwelack (Billerbeck) – Escher engine

(biplanes or otherwise different characterised machines not included)

The only two I have a few more notes about are Heinrich Heitmann and Josef Suwelack. And from both I have seen aircrafts pictured.
I can’t make out a three-wheel undercarriage here and I have the impression the part behind the front weels is hidden by a blanket or something rather than this is part of the construction. Just the style of the triangular boom was used with Heitmann's Typ II as well.

And to be honest, I have no idea what engine is used here. Only I think it’s not a rotary.
Maybe this 4-cylinder Delfosse, if the statet 30 hp for the Heitmann IV is right?
HIDDENWINGS


Usually I’m guessing the wrong type out of two possibilities.
But here I tend to say it’s the Heitmann Typ IV with the hints you gave – don’t know if it’s the first version or rebuilt by Schrader.
These sheds are unknown to me.


Cheers

Aquilius

[richard B]

Originally Posted by Aquilius

Northern Germany, 1910 in Lange?

If I take "north Germany" as not Berlin and it's surrounding then Lange gives the following possible monoplanes from 1910:

• Heinrich Ahrens (Elmshorn)
• Otto Daus (Hamburg) – 7-cyl. rotary (Gnôme?)
• Arthur Faerber & Co. (Hamburg) – Anzani, seat below the wing
• Goebel (Tapiau/Kaliningrad) – 35 hp Haacke
• Karl Grohmann mono I & II (Hamburg) – 50 hp Argus, cockpit in open fuselage, propeller via chain above
• Heinrich Heitmann Typ IV (Hamburg-Altona) – Grade copy with Delfosse engine
-> this machine was reconstructed by Erich Schrader near Breslau (Wrocław)
• Wilhelm Krumsiek (Hamburg) – tractor, open frame, seat in high position
• Josef Suwelack (Billerbeck) – Escher engine



The only two I have a few more notes about are Heinrich Heitmann and Josef Suwelack. And from both I have seen aircrafts pictured.
I can’t make out a three-wheel undercarriage here and I have the impression the part behind the front weels is hidden by a blanket or something rather than this is part of the construction. Just the style of the triangular boom was used with Heitmann's Typ II as well.

And to be honest, I have no idea what engine is used here. Only I think it’s not a rotary.
Maybe this 4-cylinder Delfosse, if the statet 30 hp for the Heitmann IV is right?
HIDDENWINGS


Usually I’m guessing the wrong type out of two possibilities.
But here I tend to say it’s the Heitmann Typ IV with the hints you gave – don’t know if it’s the first version or rebuilt by Schrader.
These sheds are unknown to me.


Cheers

Aquilius

Sorry ,I must beg your pardon Aquilius ,but for us in Bretagne , Berlin and it's surrounding are neither south Germany ,nor central Germany ...

Quoting "biplanes or otherwise different characterised machines not included"

WHY this pre-supposed ?

Good search
Richard

[richard B]

The place is BREMEN.

[Lodzermensch]

Hello,

Richard,

Considering your last statement:

Quoting "biplanes or otherwise different characterised machines not included"

WHY this pre-supposed ?

and having analyzed the picture again I think this is a biplane. If I am not wrong, dismantled starboard lower wing stands alongside the fuselage. I think I can see single interplane struts attached to both upper wings.

I do not have Lange book so I am not able to ID this airplane . I just want to share my impression. Maybe it will be handy.

Regards

Marek

[richard B]

Hello ,Marek .
I am pretty sure ,it's not a wing .
You don't need Lange to ID it :It is pictured in many books dealing with early aviation in Germany

Good luck

Richard

[Aquilius]

In the advantage of having that book, I can tell you there are again two possibilities, if the plane was built in Bremen.

(Why did you lead us to Berlin then? )


First Heinrich Focke and Georg Wulf.

After a canard-adventure with Rumpler Heinrich teamed up with Georg Wulf and built a pusher mono "A 3" in 1910 followed by a tractor mono "A 4" with NSU engine - to weak for flight.
Was the "Focke Eindecker A 4" born in 1910?
The "A 5" came 1912. Are they known as "Focke-Wulf" already?


Then Walter Schudeisky.

He also tried his luck with Rumpler before he built an monoplane by himself, of which only is given: starting trials in 1911 by pilot Adolf Renzel.


I cannot make out similarities to the landing gear of the "Focke-Alberti Ente", but the "Schudeisky Doppeldecker" built by Rumpler had this huge rectangular stabilizer mounted direct to the undercarriage and it had a somewhat similar trinagular boom
-> therefore I choose the Schudeisky Eindecker!


Cheers

Aquilius

[richard B]

Hello
Congratulation ,you have it .

I only asked for the name because I don't know whether it is the Schudeisky
"Doppeldecker" built in Rumpler works (Johannisthal ,BERLIN ,here we are )
and modified later in Bremen to an "Eindecker"
or an ED built in Bremen.
My source for the picture is the excellent "FOCKE" by Enno Springmann (Aviatic Verlag)
Looking carefully at the picture , I believe ,this ED is only the earlier DD (built in Berlin ) without its upper wing .I read in the above mentioned book, SCHUDEISKY went to Bremen with his DD.

The SCHUDEISKY DD is well known and pictures can be found in many books.

The scoreboard after challenge #139 : SCHUDEISKY EINDECKER

23.60 Rbailey
18.20 Varese2002
16.80 aerohydro
14.20 Aquilius
9.20 Rod_Filan
8.50 richard B
7.30 matte_kudasai
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
6.00 YavorD
5.50 Airarticles
**************
(those above this section must wait 12 hours before answering,
those below - and everyone else - may answer immediately)
**************
3.50 Lodzermensch
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
3.00 sobrien
2.00 Doc
2.00 sodium
1.10 Froggy
1.00 paolomiana
0.40 Wind In The Wires
0.20 Willi Von Klugermann
0.20 EricGoedkoop

[richard B]

The SCHUDEISKY with his two wings: Just forget the upper wing to see the challenge bird

[Schokoelfe]

Sorry, I think that belongs not really to your theme, but could someone give me more informations about Heinrich Heitmann, please? I´m searching for informations about my Family, especially about my great-great-grandfather whos name is - haha - Heinrich Heitmann and came from Germany-Hamburg. The only thing I know is that he was a great man and a picture of him was in the museum für hamburg history... but I dont know why and the people from the museum cant help me with something....

So I hope, that this could be a lead....

I´m very thankful for informations!!!!