Breguet's Pre-1914 Challenge #160

[Varese2002]

Breguet's Pre-1914 Challenge #160

For your consideration.



I am just fit enough to publish this new one.

Kees

Scoreboard at the start of Challenge #160:

27.60 Rbailey
23.30 aerohydro
22.40 Varese2002
15.00 Aquilius
10.50 richard B
9.20 Rod_Filan
7.30 matte_kudasai
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
6.00 YavorD
5.50 Airarticles
**************
(those above this section must wait 12 hours before answering,
those below - and everyone else - may answer immediately)
**************
4.50 Lodzermensch
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
3.00 sobrien
2.00 Doc
2.00 sodium
1.40 Wind In The Wires
1.10 Froggy
1.00 paolomiana
0.20 Willi Von Klugermann
0.20 EricGoedkoop


Previous challenges are at: Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge

The rules of engagement:

1. The thread title must be "Bréguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......".
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....).
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built.
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge.
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion).
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified.
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they belong to the ROYALTY. Once they belong to the ROYALTY they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
10. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitrator in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

[Rod_Filan]

I haven't a clue, but you just gave me a great idea for a hamster-powered ornithopter. Get well soon Kees.
-
Cheers

[aerohydro]

Hello All

This mystery machine looks very much like it's one of Gustav Koch's Schaufelradflieger designs. Check out the following, which comes from doing a search on Google Books:

Sketches from Die Luftschiffahrt Der Gegenwart.

I have a copy - somewhere - of the book Ludwig's Traum vom Fliegen by Jean Louis Schlim, which details the various flying machine 'fantasies' of King Ludwig II of Bavaria and Gustav Koch, also of Bavaria. If I can locate the book, it may help resolve whether that's Kees' mystery machine or not.

Cheers,
Paul

[Rbailey]

Aerohydro - that is exactly what it is. Here is a copy of Kee's picture.

Die Luftschiffahrt Der Gegenwart - Google Books

[aerohydro]

Hello Ron

Thanks for the confirmation. I did manage to locate Ludwig's Traum vom Fliegen. On page 65 of that book, one can find the following image:



Unfortunately, the caption to the image refers to it only as being one of Gustave Koch's designs, and calls it "ein Schaufelradflugzeug", with no other details being offered.

The book's German text, unfortunately, is a bit too dense for me to work through and to find further details. Perhaps others, more conversant with the German language than I, will have more luck:

Scan of pages 64 and 65

(No scan of pages 66 and 67, as they refer to non-Koch material)

Scan of pages 68 and 69

Cheers,
Paul

[aerohydro]

Given that Die Luftschiffahrt Der Gegenwart was published in 1903, and that it seems to have had only one edition, this Koch design obviously dates from before then, but exactly when that was, I just don't know.

[Varese2002]

Thanks Paul for all the extra information about Gustav Koch. My impression of the Schaufelradflieger comes from the 1903 work of Hermann Hoernes - Die Luftschiffahrt der Gegenwart, which was reprinted in 2009 by Bibliolife.

Although not 100% sure I think Koch made (that is at least the 'Schaufelrad') only one of these machines, probably incomplete, which could not fly as all machines of this design.

Koch got a Patent for his machine which I could only find in its Swiss form, within a reasonable time I could not find the German patent





The Patent can be found

CH45397 - Gustav Koch - Flugapparat mit feststehenden Flügeln und Schaufelrädern - January 15, 1898

Obviously Gustav Koch worked for a long time on this machine.

Koch was also a prodigious writer, will make his bibliography on his works later to post here.

Koch also devised a dirigible with Schaufelräder (!) which was never built AFAIK.



Kees

[Varese2002]

Correct Identication

The Schaufelradflieger of Gustav Koch (Germany 1898 - 1903 at least), of which at least the Schaufelrad ('Paddle') was built.

Scoreboard at the end of Challenge #160:

27.60 Rbailey
24.30 aerohydro
22.40 Varese2002
15.00 Aquilius
10.50 richard B
9.20 Rod_Filan
7.30 matte_kudasai
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
6.00 YavorD
5.50 Airarticles
**************
(those above this section must wait 12 hours before answering,
those below - and everyone else - may answer immediately)
**************
4.50 Lodzermensch
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
3.00 sobrien
2.00 Doc
2.00 sodium
1.40 Wind In The Wires
1.10 Froggy
1.00 paolomiana
0.20 Willi Von Klugermann
0.20 EricGoedkoop

The honour for #161 is for Paul.

Kees

[Varese2002]

I got in the article provided by Paul the German Patent number (DE73603). This Patent is much more comprehensive than the Swiss one (all of 15 pages) and can be found here. Title is the same.

The Patent is dated March 10, 1894 which gives some evidence about the long period Koch was researching about Schaufelräder.

Kees

[Varese2002]

As promised I made a bibliography of the writings of Gustav Koch (1843 - ?), it is attached as a PDF.



One work - the above - is available for those who are living in the USA. Although it has a date of 1896 it is still in copyright in Europe I presume, so downloading the work as a PDF is not possible.

This 1896 work of Koch was also noted by Octave Chanute, who described Koch in his <Progress in Flying Machines> pp. 215-217. Chanute describes the bird like glider where the pilot lies horizontally (quite original that is). It was partially financed by the Bavarian Ministry of the Interior and Education and the idea was to drop the glider high from a balloon. Chanute had a few points about the machine, as he preferred the pilot being vertically placed and sortening the wingspan.

Making the bibliography made it clear that the word Luftschifffahrt is a difficult one for the spelling of it . It consists of Luftschiff and Fahrt, resulting in three f's in the word. Even Koch had it difficult with that spelling (see the title page of his 1896 book above) The connotation of Luftschiff has changed from the times of Koch, first it was probably everything that flew (LTA and heavier than air, whatever), later verging more to dirigible (LTA).

Kees