Breguet's Pre-1914 Challenge #203

[ermeio]

Here is the next challenge, starting from ashore:

bchall203.JPG

hoping that this one is going to be less obscure than the preceding.
I have removed the identification from the photo, so here we have some support, at least

Good Look ehm , Good Luck!

The scoreboard at the start of Challenge #203:

33.70 Rbailey
31.80 aerohydro
31.10 Varese2002
19.70 Aquilius
11.20 richard B
9.20 Rod_Filan
7.30 matte_kudasai
6.50 Airarticles
6.30 YavorD
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
6.00 Lodzermensch
5.00 sobrien
**************
(those above this section must wait 12 hours before answering,
those below - and everyone else - may answer immediately)
**************
4.50 ermeio
3.50 Doc
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
2.40 Wind In The Wires
2.00 AnYun
2.00 sodium
1.10 Froggy
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 ulpilot
0.20 Willi Von Klugermann
0.20 EricGoedkoop

Previous Challenges are listed here: Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge

The rules of engagement:

1. The thread title must be "Bréguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......".
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....).
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built.
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge.
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion).
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified.
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they belong to the ROYALTY. Once they belong to the ROYALTY they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
10. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitrator in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet

[Rbailey]

Bates biplane on Daytona Beach in 1909. Characteristics are the tricycle landing gear, tall, narrow rudder, large inter-plane ailerons and overall “boxy” appearance.

[Aquilius]

This little pusher seems to be the first powered aircraft of Carl Sterling Bates, who pioneered in avaition with gliders even before the 20th century.

It does no look to be a two-seater, so it must be the Bates I.

For a feature, there is this 3-cycle landin gear.


Edit: the caption in the pic gives the year 1908 (retouched by you ). It must then have been the first roll-out of his 1907 formed "Bates Aeroplane Co.", maybe modified from a glider. Aerofiles gives the engine as a 20 hp Bates design.

The two-seater "Bates II" followed 1909.


Cheers

Aquilius

[Aquilius]

...once again

Rbailey might be right with the picture taken in 1909.
The biplane raced against a stripped-off Buick then at Daytona Beach.

The race was won by the Buick, but the aircraft remains the "Bates I".


Cheers

Aquilius

[ermeio]

Hi, RBailey
I must say that until now, while You have identified the builder and Aquilius the year, neither has given the correct Identification of the UFO in the photo, given that the correct ID is the one used by the builder and/or from the reporters of that time to make a reference to the object: is there anyone to take the plunge?

incidentally: the first aircraft built by Bates was a monoplane hang glider.

From the aviation hall of fame:

Carl Sterling Bates was born in Clear Lake, Iowa, in 1884. At age fourteen, he built and flew the first gilder to be flown in Iowa. This was accomplished by having the glider towed by a horse. Carl attended the Armour Institute of Technology in Chicago where he continued his work with gliders under the tutelage of pioneer aviatior Octave Chanute. He set up a workshop to build airplanes. When an engine was not available he built one himself, designing a lighter, two-cylinder, 10 to 12 horsepower motor with a smaller, faster propeller. Improving on the designs of the Wright brothers and Chanute, he devised a single rear vertical rudder and a single horizontal rudder in front and used a tricycle landing gear with a swivel front wheel that made taxiing easier. The new design allowed aircraft, for the first time, to be able to take off from any surface without using a railroad-type track. He took one of his new aircraft to Daytona Beach, Florida where he won by default the first ever airplane race, and on the same day lost the first ever race between a car and an airplane. Bates wrote many articles for Popular Mechanics and aviation magazines. After World War I he initiated a business called Creative Engineering and designed and built several innovative products for industry, home and pleasure. Carl Bates died in August, 1956.

[Aquilius]

I'm sorry ermeio, I haven't found a contemporary name yet, nor by my previous exploration.

Aerofiles distinguish them by "Bates I" & "Bates II", likely a later given designation. But thats all I could find in the web.


Here is the NY Times article telling about the upcoming race at Daytona Beach on 23rd to 26th March 1909.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...659C946897D6CF

There is only written about a "product of Carl Bates ... resembling the Wright machine"

And it gives some features:

3 bicylce wheels, shock absorbers
planes: 18'x5'
movable surface: 50 sq.ft.
engine: aircooled 2-cyl Bates of 10hp (110 lbs.)
aluminium propeller
weight: 410 lbs - loaded: 550 lbs
expected 40mph

There are also some articles by the Chicago Tribune, but they want me to pay for viewing.


Cheers

Aquilius

[aerohydro]

Hmm, the name that was used at the time, either by Bates or by reporters? That's a bit of a tough one ... even after some diligent searching, no single name becomes immediately evident. Even contemporary labelled photographs referred to this mystery machine as both an Airship and an Aeroplane. I suspect we need to defer to Carl Bates himself.

Bates, as ermeio had mentioned, wrote a number of articles on aviation. One was was for the April 1909 issue of Aeronautics, and specifically dealt with his powered flying machine. I've not been able to find the whole article, but at the Winged Victory website, there is this snippet:

"the machine was on the average about 10 to 12 feet above the ground, but on one occasion rose as high as 20 feet."

So, did Bates, in the article, refer to his creation simply as a "flying machine"? Not sure. I suspect if we look at Bates' use of terminology, we will get a better picture.
In the book "Balloons to Jets: A Century of Aeronautics in Illinois, 1855-1955" by Howard Lee Scamehorn - which can be partially viewed at Google Books - it's mentioned that prior to Bates building his powered machines, he had a sign made that said "Aeroplanes Built to Order". He also established the "Bates Aeroplane Company". So, regardless of any proper noun that Carl Bates may have given to this flying machine, I'm pretty sure he would've referred to it as an aeroplane.

So, we may be then looking at the 1909 Carl S Bates Aeroplane.

Cheers,
Paul

[Varese2002]

According to this snippet in Aeronautics 1909

New Bates Flyer. Carl Bates, of Chicago, whose first aeroplane has already been illustrated in these columns, has started work on a new machine intended to be an improvement upon the former. It will be a bi-surface machine, of course,......

the contemporary name in 1909 is Bates Flyer.

Cheers

Kees

[ermeio]

O.K., Bates Airship, 1909 as Bates himself called this aircraft; also referred as Bates Flyer by the newspapers
RBailey is the winner, having been the first to give the correct ID at least of the builder.
The followig posts give us some proof about how controversial an identification could be, also on well documented aeroplanes, like the Bates Airship or Flyer.
Bates used the word Airship to refer this aircraft - may be since he was testing his machine on the shore, ready to sail away...

"Use of the word "airship" to describe Bates' plane demonstrates that this event took place so early in the history of aviation that the terminology was not yet settled. Eventually the word "airship" was properly applied only to dirigibles".

Also controversial and a difficult issue is the attribution of a date, even when we have contemporary sources at hand, like in this case - the photo bears the date 1908, while the event is to be put in the 1909 timeline.

So Rbayley gets the full score and will be the one who has to post the next challenge,
while I'd give Aerohydro a bonus of 0,20 points, having been the first to bring out the word Airship (Breguet is the final judge about this), a welcome contribute to turn these challenges in pieces of collaborative research and technical tables about early aeroplanes - that's what will last, after and above all.

[ermeio]

The scoreboard at the end of Challenge #203(Bates 1909 Airship):

34.70 Rbailey


32.00 aerohydro

31.10 Varese2002
19.70 Aquilius

11.20 richard B
9.20 Rod_Filan
7.30 matte_kudasai
6.50 Airarticles
6.30 YavorD
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
6.00 Lodzermensch
5.00 sobrien
**************
(those above this section must wait 12 hours before answering,
those below - and everyone else - may answer immediately)
**************
4.50 ermeio
3.50 Doc
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
2.40 Wind In The Wires
2.00 AnYun
2.00 sodium
1.10 Froggy
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 ulpilot
0.20 Willi Von Klugermann
0.20 EricGoedkoop


(I wish to thank Varese and Aquilius, even if with no score to them)
The next challenge will be hosted by Rbailey,
and I'm proud od having contributed to set the right GMT-8 timeline again, bringing this challenge out of the US night

best regards and thanks to You all
ermeio