Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft ID Challenge #397

Rod_Filan · 5 January 2012, 05:21 PM

Ahhh roger that.

With all the comments fast and furious, wasn't sure.

It would have come off ebay. It's from a set of Dominguez photos mostly showing a/c on the ground in and around the paddock. Pretty well all other planes are recognizable--this being the only oddball machine.

FWIW here are entry lists from the Los Angeles Herald. The only difference I can find between the two is that they added Willard. I haven't checked it against the Wiki list yet...I'm just throwing them out there for you fellas to copy and save.

19091205_LA.meet.list_LAHerald (aeronefs again)
19091224_LA.meet.list_LAHerald (revised to say aeroplanes)

Cheers

Tork1945 · 5 January 2012, 10:10 PM

A set of sixty stereocope images of the Los Angeles Air Meet 1910 was acquired in 2008 by the California State University. The collection will be scanned and made available in the CSUDH Digital collection. Unfortunately I have not found them yet in the collection, might have overlooked it till now. There may have been a clue on the Challenge Mystery plane.

California State University, Dominguez Hills | Dominguez Hills Dateline

CSUDH Digital Collection to be found at

http://archives.csudh.edu:2006/cdm4/aviationmeet.php

Tork1945

Rbailey · 6 January 2012, 06:00 AM

There is a nice picture of Klassen's gyroplane in the ephemera section, but I guess we will have to wait for the stereo images.

Tork1945 · 6 January 2012, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rbailey

There is a nice picture of Klassen's gyroplane in the ephemera section, but I guess we will have to wait for the stereo images.

It is interesting to see at the ephemera section the postcard of Louis Paulhan in combination with a Blériot monoplane.

http://archives.csudh.edu:2006/cdm4/...HOW=928&REC=20

The Blériot monoplane on the Los Angeles Meeting 1910 postcard is the Blériot Type IX which actually never flew.

The picture seems to be 'ripped' from another picture showing Blériot himself with the machine. You see 'ripping' and evasion of copyright of others is of all times especially if some money could be earned by selling postcards.

I intend to do a (leisurely) countdown of the Challenge machine, just by the list and selecting the monoplanes and eliminating the known ones. It might be possible to come down one way or other at the Mystery challenge machine.

Tork1945

Tork1945

Tork1945 · 7 January 2012, 03:57 AM

I finished the first step of the inventory of 'monoplanes' which were entered for the 1910 Air Meet of Los Angeles.

The second step will be to check this against the lists provided by Mr. Filan.

The third step is to check the list against the list in the Wiki article.

Making the first list from the San Francisco Call 1909 (December 24) one realizes how much of the optical scanning is actually faulty. There is still much scientific work to do to better this OCR scanning of admittedly somewhat fuzzy old newspapers.

Tork1945

Rbailey · 7 January 2012, 06:19 AM

I had thought of the same thing. Here is a list taken from http://en.efactory.pl/1910_Los_Angel...-localtalent-9, omitting Klassen.

Aero Nagivation Company Girard, Kansas Aeroplane
Pacific Aero Club San Francisco, California Monoplane
Charles Borok New York Monoplane
Ralph Saunier New York Monoplane
Donald H. Gordon Bostonia, California Aeroplane
Dana P. Goodwin San Francisco, California Monoplane
San Diego Aero Manufacturing Company San Diego, California Monoplane
W.M. Williams Douglas, Arizona Monoplane
Roy Knabenshue Toledo, Ohio Aeroplane
William Stephens Los Angeles, California Monoplane
A.J. Gonzales Los Angeles, California Bowplane
G.H. Loose San Francisco, California Monoplane
D.J. Johnson Los Angeles, California Aeroplane
Charles Skogland Los Angeles, California Monoplane

The Loose monoplane was very different and can be ruled out I think. And so can the Aero Navigation Co. (Call monoplane) and the Gordon machine, of which I have found pictures.

But what is a "bowplane"?

Rod_Filan · 7 January 2012, 08:42 AM

We all had the same idea!

Quote:

Loose monoplane

A previous challenge. 230

Quote:

A. J. Gonzales, LA, bowplane

Must be a repeated typo.

The "Gonzales No. 1" biplane was built by twins Willy and Arthur Gonzales, with help from their brother Eddy Gonzales, during the period from 1910 to 1912.
Indoor Exhibits: The Gonzales Biplane

Rod_Filan · 7 January 2012, 09:38 AM

A/C that I eliminated with near certainty:

Charles Morok, NY [Charles Frank Morok] .. Belgian aviator soon later on Farman biplane.
William Stephens, LA [William Stevens] .. reported in 1909 as Bleriot type.
San Diego Aeroplane Mfg Co, San Diego [Charles F. Walsh] .. have photo.
B. F. Roehig, San Diego [Bernard F. Roehrig] .. was a biplane.
S. Y. Beach, NY [Stanley Y. Beach] .. must be the 1909 Beach-Willard monoplane.

Supposedly Roy Knabenshue's plane was a Wright-type biplane with Curtiss-style tricycle gear. [Caroll Gray, IIRC]. I've read in a news item as many as two biplanes and two monoplanes being built by Knabenshue. No evidence exists of there being even one aeroplane built by Roy.

A/C that I cannot eliminate:

Charles Scoglund, LA [Charles Skoglund]
D. J. Johnson, LA (listed as aerofoil)
Dana P. Goodwin / George A. Cobelan, SF
Pacific Aero Club, SF
A. M. Williams, Douglas AZ
Ralph Saunier, NY
H. W. Gale, NY (listed as aeroplane)

Of the above I found no trace except for Skoglund. His monoplane was reported to have arrived at the Meet on the day of the Klassen fire.

Quote:

San Francisco Call. January 13, 1910. p. 5

"Charles Skoglund of Los Angeles brought to the field today a monoplane which has not flown, but which presents possibilities."

The Los Angeles Herald later reported, in October 1910; Chas. S. Scoglund entering a monoplane of original design at the San Diego (Motordrome) Meet of October 23-24.

In July 1911 one finds Skoglund still active -- "Harry Holmes has been flying a monoplane of unique design which was constructed by Charles Skoglund for Harry V. Schiller." .. and .. "The Aero Club of California has appointed the following standing committees through its president, George B. Harrison, for the ensuing 12 months: [..] Financial and Auditing — J. J. Slavin, W. H. Leonard. M. H. Gallagher, Chas. Skoglund."

There the trail goes cold. Yet many newspapers are still unread.
Cheers

Tork1945 · 7 January 2012, 09:54 AM

I made a second version of the list of monoplanes (plus some extra's) after having consulted the two lists of Mr. Filan (from the LA Herald) and the list in the Wiki article on the 1910 Air Meet LA.

Needless to say there are differences, mostly in the spelling of names. The record holder in names is B.F. Rochig who is also spelled as B.F. Roehig and B.F.Roerig.

I include the second version of the list.

Given the activity done in the meantime by Mr. Filan and Mr. Rbailey it is not of much use to continue as it would be unlikely that I find anything they have not found already.

Tork1945

Rbailey · 7 January 2012, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rod_Filan

A/C that I cannot eliminate:

Charles Scoglund, LA [Charles Skoglund]
D. J. Johnson, LA (listed as aerofoil)
Dana P. Goodwin / George A. Cobelan, SF
Pacific Aero Club, SF
A. M. Williams, Douglas AZ
Ralph Saunier, NY
H. W. Gale, NY (listed as aeroplane)

Of the above I found no trace except for Skoglund. His monoplane was reported to have arrived at the Meet on the day of the Klassen fire.The Los Angeles Herald later reported, in October 1910; Chas. S. Scoglund entering a monoplane of original design at the San Diego (Motordrome) Meet of October 23-24.

In July 1911 one finds Skoglund still active -- "Harry Holmes has been flying a monoplane of unique design which was constructed by Charles Skoglund for Harry V. Schiller." .. and .. "The Aero Club of California has appointed the following standing committees through its president, George B. Harrison, for the ensuing 12 months: [..] Financial and Auditing — J. J. Slavin, W. H. Leonard. M. H. Gallagher, Chas. Skoglund."

There the trail goes cold. Yet many newspapers are still unread.
Cheers

In Technical World magazine, March 1910 the Skoglund machine is described as having unique ailerons, being like roller blinds controlled by a lever such that one increases in area as the other decreases. Called disappearing wing tips. Doesn't sound like our subject.

As an aside - could the float-like things under the wings of our challenge be some sort of aileron?