Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft ID Challenge #397

[Rod_Filan]

Originally Posted by Paul

I suspect that Skoglund may be worthy of further scrutiny.

Our mystery machine has a tricycle undercarriage, with a relatively wide wheeltrack. IMHO, because of this, it's quite unlikely that the wing-tip fixtures are meant to be wing-tip skids or the like. Additionally, having such an idiosyncratic design for something as basic as skids seems to be out of place with the relatively straightforward construction that the rest of the craft has.

I suspect these mysterious wing-tip objects are actually the roller blind ailerons, such as those ascribed to Skoglund. The fact that the 'top' of these objects are supported at each end, as an axle would need to be, would mean they fit in with them being a roller blind design. The angle of the blinds are such that it looks at though they are attached by cables that lead to the central control column.

Originally Posted by Paul

Only the 'mechanism' that's attached to the wingtip closest to the camera can be seen properly. The one that's fitted to the furthermost wingtip is angled in such a way as to make it unclear as to exactly how extended/retracted it is.

It *might* be that the roller blind aileron *is* shown fully extended. Given the unusual sizing of some of the airplane's components (eg the rear rudder), the designer seems to have his own ideas as to what size the control surfaces for his flying machine needed to be.

Too late to earn a point, but I think we have a match.

I've come across another photo of this mystery Dominguez machine. I'll post it when I get a chance--including some close-up detail.

But to quickly describe this postally-unused photo postcard in near perfect condition; the photograph is taken from the exact same location as the picture described on page 115 in the Pauley book--that which is captioned incorrectly in both respects as Erza Meeker seated on the Eaton-Twining monoplane. It is probably taken by the same photographer. Two gentlemen, rather awkward looking, are seated on the machine; three other curious men behind it. The detail is quite good and control wires and bracing wires are clearly visible. The view is not cropped like it is in the Pauley book photo and in it, the entire portside wingtip device is shown; the other, in the forground, is clipped yet enough of it is there to be convinced that one might, for lack of a truer term, very easily call it a "roller blind".


Cheers

[Rod_Filan]

(since nothing's been added here, I'll just use this now-empty duplicate post spot...)

The first detail includes the outermost corner of the leading edge of the right wing--the furthest bolt and wingnut along--however, the so-called "roller" and the bracket holding the back end of the roller are outside the frame. What you can see is the slightly curved leading edge of the "shade" and a slat running along its inside edge. To me this looks like a fabric panel and a wooden baton with wires attached on either end that join and that eventually disappears at a spot near the tillerman's right foot.

Above the shade runs a wire horizontally. It continues on underside until it reaches the innermost point of the wing at its leading edge, then shoots down vertically, loops under the "wheel" (what looks like a ship's wheel or cart wheel), goes back up and runs along the other wing to finally attach itself onto the portside "roller" at a point just forward of the leading edge of the "shade" seen in the 2nd close-up.






A full-frame image can be found here:
http://www.earlyaeroplanes.com/br.pr...Skoglund.1.jpg

As a reminder to what Rbailey found earlier:

TECHNICAL WORLD MAGAZINE, April 1910. Volume XIII Number 2

Another interesting experiment is the "disappearing wing tip" of the Skoglund monoplane. These wing tips are constructed somewhat like roller shades but are controlled by a lever. As one lengthens the other shortens and in that way the balance of the air craft may be maintained, or at least, that is the inventor's theory.

Cheers

[Tork1945]

Great picture in surprisingly high quality. Great find in this quality, some archives seem to be limitless and one can find always something under the dust.

Tork1945

[Tork1945]

Originally Posted by Rod_Filan

I've come across another photo of this mystery Dominguez machine. I'll post it when I get a chance--including some close-up detail.

But to quickly describe this postally-unused photo postcard in near perfect condition; the photograph is taken from the exact same location as the picture described on page 115 in the Pauley book--that which is captioned incorrectly in both respects as Erza Meeker seated on the Eaton-Twining monoplane. It is probably taken by the same photographer. Two gentlemen, rather awkward looking, are seated on the machine; three other curious men behind it. The detail is quite good and control wires and bracing wires are clearly visible. The view is not cropped like it is in the Pauley book photo and in it, the entire portside wingtip device is shown; the other, in the forground, is clipped yet enough of it is there to be convinced that one might, for lack of a truer term, very easily call it a "roller blind".

Charles Skoglund did not evaporate completely from sight after the 1910 Los Angeles Meeting monoplane, as referenced in one sentence in Aeronautics volume 9 (1911) 1 (July) p.22

Harry Holmes has been flying a monoplane of unique design which was constructed by Charles Skoglund for Harry V. Schiller.

Unfortunately this is all there is.

Tork1945

[Rod_Filan]

Originally Posted by Tork

Great picture in surprisingly high quality. ...

I see the images are missing now. Bandwidth Limit Exceeded. My site must have got an unusually high number of hits this month.

I'll try to get those photos back up by tomorrow.


Cheers

*Edit* in the meantime I've added the missing details as attachments

[Rod_Filan]

Originally Posted by Tork

Charles Skoglund did not evaporate completely from sight after the 1910 Los Angeles Meeting monoplane, as referenced in one sentence in Aeronautics volume 9 (1911) 1 (July) p.22

Harry Holmes has been flying a monoplane of unique design which was constructed by Charles Skoglund for Harry V. Schiller.

Originally Posted by Rod_Filan

The Los Angeles Herald later reported, in October 1910; Chas. S. Scoglund entering a monoplane of original design at the San Diego (Motordrome) Meet of October 23-24.

In July 1911 one finds Skoglund still active -- "Harry Holmes has been flying a monoplane of unique design which was constructed by Charles Skoglund for Harry V. Schiller."
.. and ..
"The Aero Club of California has appointed the following standing committees through its president, George B. Harrison, for the ensuing 12 months: [..] Financial and Auditing — J. J. Slavin, W. H. Leonard. M. H. Gallagher, Chas. Skoglund."

I can't find my source of the entire second bit at the moment (also from Aeronautics I'm assuming). So where are photos of this machine?



Cheers

[Tork1945]

The second part of the second paragraph also originates from Aeronautics Volume 9 (1911) 1 (July) p.31

The complete story in Aeronautics is this one

The Aero Club of California has appointed the following standing committees through its president, George B, Harrison, for the ensuing 12 months:
Membership—Raymond I. Blakeslee, Los Angeles; K. Roger Stearns, Los Angeles; Ed. R. Maier. Los Angeles; Leon Escalller. Los Angeles: William Stevens, Los Angeles; Glenn L. Martin. Santa Ana; Frank T. Searlght, San
Diego; E. H. Karle, Pomona; James R. Ricketts, Long Beach; Harvey H. Hlnde, Riverside; Louis Mortimer, Los Angeles; James R. Townsend, Los Angeles, and K. J. Campbell, Pasadena.
House—Charles F. Walsh, M. C. Tunison, Mrs. H. La V. Twining, R. S. Stratton and Charles Forman.
Entertainment—L. P. Barrett, Earle Remington, C. H. Temple, L. K. Freeman and F. G. Calkins.
Technical and Contest—H. La V. Twining, H. S. Dosh, W. S. Eaton, Charles Rilliet and Buel H. Green.
Financial and Auditing— J. J. Slavin, W. H.Leonard. M. H. Gallagher, Chas.Skoglund
Investigating—K. C. Hamlin, C. H. Day. W. B. Cannon, W. H. B. Kilner. Alfred Solano.
Member National Council of Aero Clubs of America—Earle Remington; alternate member Ernest L. Jones.
New York Representative Committee—E L. Jones, T. A. Hill and F. E. Moskovlcs.
Foreign Representatives—London, R. J. H. Hope; Paris. Louis Paulhan.

I cannot judge if the position Skoglund got in Financial and Auditing was an enviable one.

Tork1945

[aerohydro]

Hi All,

Whilst searching for an answer to Challenge #417, I came across some interesting information pertaining to the 1910 Los Angeles International Air Meet.

August E Mueller, a Los Angeles-based balloonist, had been mentioned in the contemporary press, as someone who was working on a large flying machine that might take part in the Air Meet. As his name doesn't appear in the usual listings of known Air Meet participants, it seems that the craft hadn't been completed in time. By the start of 1911, however, it had been finished. The following news snippet comes from the "Tacoma Times", January 18th, 1911, page 4:

It's a pity the image is so dark. With a length of 100 feet, and a width of 60 feet, "Mueller's Monster" - as this machine was known - would've dwarfed some of the local dirigibles!

Wikipedia - 1910 Los Angeles International Air Meet - Local Creations

Cheers,
Paul

[Tork1945]

I had seen the machine of Mueller also, really saving it for a coming Challenge. There is some more on 'Captain' Mueller in the newspapers

Los Angeles herald. (Los Angeles [Calif.]) 1900-1911, January 01, 1910, Page 5, Image 5 - Chronicling America (The Library of Congress)

There is also a 1907 patent from Mueller

Patent US937381 - MOTOR-DRIVEN AEROPLANE - Google Patents

It is a pity no fine photographic print of the machine is available, maybe a copy is lurking in an archive.

Tork1945

[aerohydro]

There's a photo of Mueller, including a partial view of his machine at this link:

Los Angeles herald. (Los Angeles [Calif.]) 1900-1911, January 11, 1910, Page 3, Image 3 - Chronicling America (The Library of Congress)