Breguet’s pre-1914 Challenge No 421

Rod_Filan · 1 May 2012, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Mr. Filan wins 0.2 points for his identification of the balloon shed from Santos-Dumont.

Well Tork, I was wrong. I thought this striped tent-hangar was at Parc de l'Aero-Club St. Cloud. Actually it's a little ways down the river at Neuilly St. James.

It gets a small mention in FLIGHT reader correspondence here: dakota | 1957 | 1114 | Flight Archive if you're interested, and I've attached a small photo of Santos standing against this hangar, captioned as being at Neuilly.

Sorry for any confusion. Just to make up for it though, ... another fantastic photo of the helicopter. But don't get your hopes up too high - it's still in parts.

Cheers

Tork1945 · 1 May 2012, 10:28 PM

This Challenge develops very interestingly around the little known Santos-Dumont heélicoptère. Thanks for even another picture of the not fully assembled machine.

Some other points which came up in this Challenge

the picture of Santos-Dumont with the glider

The picture is attributed to the famous contemporary photographer Maurice-Louis Branger and can be seen in even better quality here

Santos-Dumont, Alberto

Opdycke shows another view of this experimental model, which was used by Santos-Dumont to test the lift of wings. IMO this was a preliminary model for Santos-Dumont to come to grips with heavier-than-air machines.

The little known glider (Santos-Dumont No.11 or XI) of 1905 is given as [source: Winters, Nancy. 1998. Man flies. The story of Alberto Santos-Dumont Master of the balloon.
[indent]No.11. Glider, towed behind boat; redesigned as twin-propeller aircraft. Never given power[indent]

There exists a picture which is attributed as the Santos-Dumont No 11, showing the machine with two propellers.

Further very little is known about this development.

The Santos-Dumont numbering

Apparently in those times there was some discrepancy on the numbering (No 14 or No XIV) for instance. It would be interesting to know who actually assigned the unique numbers to differentiate the dirigibles / machines. In those times it was quite extraordinary to classify so meticulously. Look for instance at the Voisin and Farman machines.

It is also clear that machines were not conceived in sequence according to the numbers, but sometimes in parallel as evidenced by your picture of the S-D hélicoptère with the fuselage of the No 14 in the back.

The riddle card

Your card may have a relation with the 1842 vaudeville L'omelette fantastique VAUDEVILLE EN UN ACTE, PAR MM. DUVERT ET BOYER. Will have to look into the text to see if the plot will fit with the drawing on the card.

Tork1945

Rod_Filan · 1 May 2012, 11:14 PM

Quote:

There exists a picture which is attributed as the Santos-Dumont No 11, showing the machine with two propellers. Further very little is known about this development.

Again, confusion in the numbering. This is the gondola - the second gondola actually - of the not-so-succesful No.16. That is; the hybrid HTA/LTA project. I think it was initially fitted with the motor(Antoinette?) from No.15, which was then used in the never-completed aeroplane No.17.

The No.16 was modified with a new gondola suited to hold two opposing cylinder engines each powering its own prop. (2* 2-cyl of 6 hp each) --That's what you've posted. See attached postcard images.

Quote:

Your card may have a relation with the 1842 vaudeville L'omelette fantastique VAUDEVILLE EN UN ACTE, PAR MM. DUVERT ET BOYER. Will have to look into the text to see if the plot will fit with the drawing on the card.

That's fantastique news! Thanks for the clue. I suspected it might be something very obscure and forgotten. Sounds promising.

Cheers

Rod_Filan · 2 May 2012, 10:36 AM

Quote:

The little known glider (Santos-Dumont No.11 or XI) of 1905 is given as [source: Winters, Nancy. 1998. Man flies. The story of Alberto Santos-Dumont Master of the balloon.]
No.11. Glider, towed behind boat; redesigned as twin-propeller aircraft. Never given power

If this were the case, then a larger No.11 would have been needed to preform what the author is claiming here. Until I can find something more substantial I'll remain skeptical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by book review

Winters, whom the jacket flap describes as a London-based writer with a "particular interest in style and adventure" attempts neither clinical biography nor aviation history (for that see Peter Wykeham's Santos-Dumont: A Study in Obsession, 1962). Instead she gives us Santos's [sic] story as a sort of flowering dream, allowing us to appreciate it as the Belle Epoque did, with wonder, amusement, and delight in its unfolding.

Cheers

Tork1945 · 2 May 2012, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rod_Filan

That's fantastique news! Thanks for the clue. I suspected it might be something very obscure and forgotten. Sounds promising.

Do not rejoice too much. I looked through the text of the Vaudeville L'omelette fantastique write by Félix Auguste Duvert in 1842.

L'omelette fantastique: vaudeville en un acte - Félix-Auguste Duvert, Louis Boyer - Google Boeken

Unfortunately I could not link the story to the post card.

I also looked through the weekly Le Petit Parisien Illustrée but in the end could not allocate a gravure which resembles your card.

There is a name (of the artist probably) in the corner right under, which is for me not readable, but there is the name Toulouse at the end. If you can produce the name of the artist it would give at least one more link.

Tork1945

Tork1945 · 2 May 2012, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rod_Filan

If this were the case, then a larger No.11 would have been needed to preform what the author is claiming here. Until I can find something more substantial I'll remain skeptical.
Cheers

Opdycke (p.226) gives little information on the Santos-Dumont № 11

The design was developed into a glider with a wing area of 22 sqm which was apparently built and tested behind a motor-boat. A 1906 drawing (not published) shows the same design but larger, with a push-pull propeller combination in which the rear one turned on the boom itself. To have been known as № 11, this one was not built.

The text suggests to me that the glider which was tested behind the motor-boat had no number, while the № 11 remained project only.

Tork1945

Rod_Filan · 2 May 2012, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tork

Do not rejoice too much. I looked through the text of the Vaudeville L'omelette fantastique write by Félix Auguste Duvert in 1842.

L'omelette fantastique: vaudeville en un acte - Félix-Auguste Duvert, Louis Boyer - Google Boeken
..
If you can produce the name of the artist it would give at least one more link.

Check.
It's the publisher's name. A. F. Laclau, Editeur, Toulouse.

A quality firm that printed all sorts of postcards by the look of it online. A lot of pleasant and pretty souvenir subjects, photos of scenery...even found a patriotic WWI art card... here's a typical Laclau postcard example. French-kissing going on everywhere in this one. ou la la!
Found a small portfolio of very nice calling cards (business cards). Still in business in 1921--but I haven't gone any further on the matter.

I've made some headway on the farcical one-act L'omelette fantastique. I gather it was very well known, played in New York a few years later, and there even exists an animated short film L'omelette fantastique. (1909); English title: Magic Eggs. No plot summary seems to be available anywhere so I've taken to randomly translating bits and pieces from the script. I have some isolated ideas but nothing to connect them yet. I'm not expecting a eureka moment any time soon however.

Cheers

Rod_Filan · 2 May 2012, 07:41 PM

So to get back to the question,

Quote:

Apparently in those times there was some discrepancy on the numbering (No 14 or No XIV) for instance. It would be interesting to know who actually assigned the unique numbers to differentiate the dirigibles / machines. In those times it was quite extraordinary to classify so meticulously. Look for instance at the Voisin and Farman machines.

It is also clear that machines were not conceived in sequence according to the numbers, but sometimes in parallel as evidenced by your picture of the S-D hélicoptère with the fuselage of the No 14 in the back.

You're quite correct on the sequencing. So prevalent was the problem it's even unclear if Santos-Dumont didn't bring No.8 (I'm to believe a near clone of No.6) to America in 1902... And which remained? No.6 or No.8? - No.7 wasn't shipped to St. Louis until 1904 arriving in New York with the No.9, then falling on that nasty bit of hard luck was sent back to France sans Baladeuce. But did it get shipped back and forth to the States twice or just once? Or did it even go back at all? And what about that airship S-D sold in Britain in 1902 thereabouts? -- Confused yet? You can bet the newspapermen over here were. I certainly still am.

Nevertheless, I accept that Santos-Dumont numbered all his petite machines himself. That's why there never was a Santos-Dumont No.8 ... that was his unlucky number didn't you know. Hey, but wait a second...!

It's madness I tell you. Madness!

Cheers

Tork1945 · 2 May 2012, 09:02 PM

The Wiener Luftschiffer-Zeitung volume V (1906) issue 8 (August) p.169 gives some more information about the S-D Hélicoptère

SANTOS-DUMONT, so schreibt man uns, wollte am 20. Juli seinen ersten Versuch mit dem nach seinen Ideen konstruierten Schraubenflieger wagen. Es hat lange gebraucht, bis dieser Apparat fertig wurde, dessen erste Aufflüge man schon vor zwei Monaten erwarten zu sollen glaubte. Nun er endlich bereitsteht, verhindert die ungünstige Witterung das Ausprobieren der Flugmaschine, die, wie man weiß, zu dem Einfachsten zählt, was auf diesem Gebiete geleistet worden ist. Besteht doch der Apparat kaum aus etwas anderes als aus einem Gestänge und zwei nebeneinander angebrachten Hebeschrauben. Bei den ersten Versuchen dieses Schraubenfliegers soll derselbe von einem Ballon, und zwar von dem "Nr. XIV" Santos-Dumonts getragen werden. Dieser "Nr. XIV" ist bereits mit Wasserstoff gefüllt. Die Abhängung der Maschine an den Ballon war früher nicht beabsichtigt, sondern ist eine neuere Idee

.

This small news item gives praise to Santos-Dumont for designing a hélicoptère as simple as possible. Tests will start around Juli 20, 1906 as they were delayed by bad weather. The first test of the hélicoptère should be done with the héicoptère fixed beneath the Nr.XIV (14) dirigible, which at the time of reporting was already filled with hydrogen (Wasserstoff). It is quoted that this was a new idea (of S-D).

The same idea was later applied for testing the Nr. XIVbis (14bis).

Tork1945

Tork1945 · 2 May 2012, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rod_Filan

Nevertheless, I accept that Santos-Dumont numbered all his petite machines himself. That's why there never was a Santos-Dumont No.8 ... that was his unlucky number didn't you know. Hey, but wait a second...!

It's madness I tell you. Madness!

The book of Winters does not contain a chapter 8 for this reason. It is quoted 'in deference to Alberto Dumont's aversion to the number there will be no chapter eight'.

IMO I found the book of Winter quite interesting, whatever is said in book reviews.

Tork1945