Breguet’s pre-1914 Challenge No 421

[Tork1945]

A new one for your attention.

Tork1945



Here , the previous challenges ::Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge

Scoreboard at the start of Challenge #421 :

83.70 Rbailey
79.60 aerohydro
52.95 Varese2002
38.20 Aquilius
27.90 Rod_Filan
27.15 richard B
**************
(those above this section must wait 24 hours before answering)
**************
20.70 Tork1945
9.00 Doc
8.50 Lodzermensch
8.00 Airarticles
7.70 ermeio
7.30 matte_kudasai
7.30 YavorD
6.30 AnYun
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
5.00 sobrien
5.35 Froggy
**************
(those immediately above this section must wait 12 hours before answering.)
**************
4.20 Wind In The Wires
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
3.00 sodium
1.00 matthewk
1.00 Catfish
1.00 dhc2pilot
1.00 Mattyboy
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 Tripehound Flyboy
0.20 EricGoedkoop

The rules

1. The thread title must be "Breguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......".
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....).
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built.
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge.
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion).
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified.
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has received 5 (five) points, they belong to ROYALTY, and must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer. Once someone has achieved 25 (twentyfive) points, they must wait 24hrs after the original post before being able to post an answer.
10. In order to correctly identify the flying object, an answer must mention a characteristic of the design which has helped with its identification, or include a reference to a publication or website, which will confirm the attribution.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitrator in relation to questions about the rule is BREGUET

[MattyBoy]

Looks like the Cornu helicopter from 1907 ?

[Tork1945]

Originally Posted by MattyBoy

Looks like the Cornu helicopter from 1907 ?

Sorry, not correct.

Tork1945

[richard B]

Bonjour à tous

For the two rotors and the bicycle-like wheel : The SANTOS DUMONT Hélicoptère 1906 .

I don't know much about it : It was built to perform the first "un kilomètre en circuit fermé" 50 000 F challenge of Deutsch & Archdeacon .The challenge was won by Farman two years later .
It had two rotors and a propeller .

Cheers

Richard

[Rod_Filan]

I recognized it as the interior of Santos-Dumont's shed at St. Cloud ... excused myself.

Officially, I believe the name of the challenge machine is the S-D No. 12



Cheers

[Tork1945]

Excellent. The Challenge picture shows the assembly of the Santos-Dumont hélicoptère designed / built in 1905 / 1906.

It is known that the Dufeaux brothers demonstrated their hélicopter in 1905 in Paris, which attracted great interest in aviation circles. L'Aérophile published a long and detailed article about the Dufaux machine.

As hélicopters were in the center of interest in Paris and together with the prize of Archdeacon-Deutsch of 50.000 Francs (specifically for heavier than air machines) for the first who would fly a distance of 500 meter. Santos-Dumont decided to have a go at an hélicoptère to win the prize. The design was a complex construction consisting of two vertical propellers (diameter 6 meter) to lift the machine in the air and one propeller to move the machine in the vertical. The general arrangement looks like this



The propellers were designed with the help of Victor Tatin. They look from the outside remarkably like the propellers from earlier dirigibles of Santos-Dumont. As can be seen they were of ultra light construction.

Measurement of the Santos-Dumont hélicoptére were impressive, length 12,50 meter - height 6 meter - total weight (inclusive engine) 104 kg. The construction was made entirely of bamboo (shades of the coming ultra light S-D Demoiselle). The engine fitted was a 24 hp eight-cylinder V-engine of Antoinette-Levavasseur with a weight of 35 kg



The calculated lifting power was 180 kg, which made it theoretically possible that the slender Santos-Dumont could be lifted in the air.

But ... a control calculation made by Archdeacon came to a total weight (inclusive 54 kg weight of the pilot Santos=Dumont) till 212 kg. According to the calculations of Archdeacon the machine was 32 kg too heavy to be lifted from the ground with this 24 hp engine.

It is not known what happened further and if the machine was completed, but it is certain that it did not win the 50.000 franc Archdeacon-Deutsch contest for a distance of 500 meter covered by heavier than air machines.

See also part 2.

Tork1945

[Tork1945]

Part 2

The identification of Santos-Dumont types was contemporary done with Roman numbers as shown in articles in L'Aérophile, so it was the Santos-Dumont XIV. I could not find a contemporary reference to the Santos-Dumont XII Hélicoptère, but given the number list devised by later historians this is probably the correct number.

A few more pictures show Santos-Dumont with parts of his hélicoptère.





Tork1945

[Tork1945]

Correct identification

Santos-Dumont Hélicoptère dating from 1905/1906, No. XII in the list of Santos-Dumont machines.

Obviously Mr Richard B. wins the 1.0 point but Mr. Filan wins 0.2 points for his identification of the balloon shed from Santos-Dumont.


Scoreboard at the start of Challenge #421 :

83.70 Rbailey
79.60 aerohydro
52.95 Varese2002
38.20 Aquilius
28.15 richard B
28.10 Rod_Filan

**************
(those above this section must wait 24 hours before answering)
**************
20.70 Tork1945
9.00 Doc
8.50 Lodzermensch
8.00 Airarticles
7.70 ermeio
7.30 matte_kudasai
7.30 YavorD
6.30 AnYun
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
5.00 sobrien
5.35 Froggy
**************
(those immediately above this section must wait 12 hours before answering.)
**************
4.20 Wind In The Wires
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
3.00 sodium
1.00 matthewk
1.00 Catfish
1.00 dhc2pilot
1.00 Mattyboy
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 Tripehound Flyboy
0.20 EricGoedkoop

Next Breguet Pre-1914 challenge is in the hands of Mr. Rchard B.

[Rod_Filan]

Thanks for the additional images Tork -- and the credit for identifying the location. Not that that was at all expected.

The identification of Santos-Dumont types was contemporary done with Roman numbers as shown in articles in L'Aérophile, so it was the Santos-Dumont XIV.

A minor point of contention. AFAIK I don't recall seeing his airships designated as expressed in Roman numerals. How does this explain Santos-Dumont himself physically marking his machines using Indo-Arabic numerals?

You can see the conundrum here.

I will look for an exception to the rule tonight. If I can find one, I'll let you know.


Cheers

[Tork1945]

Originally Posted by Rod_Filan

You can see the conundrum here.

A conundrum in the meaning ...

A logical postulation that evades resolution, an intricate and difficult problem

Tork1945