Breguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #435

[Rod_Filan]

Scoreboard at the completion of Challenge #434: the Keil Ballo-plane dirigible balloon of 1905/06

86.40 Rbailey
81.60 aerohydro
52.95 Varese2002
40.20 Aquilius
30.50 Rod_Filan
29.45 richard B
**************
(those above this section must wait 24 hours before answering)
**************
21.90 Tork1945
9.40 Airarticles
9.00 Doc
8.50 Lodzermensch
7.70 ermeio
7.30 matte_kudasai
7.30 YavorD
6.30 AnYun
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
5.00 sobrien
5.35 Froggy
**************
(those immediately above this section must wait 12 hours before answering.)
**************
4.20 Wind In The Wires
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
3.00 sodium
1.00 matthewk
1.00 Catfish
1.00 dhc2pilot
1.00 Mattyboy
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 Tripehound Flyboy
0.20 EricGoedkoop

Previous challenges are here: Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge.

The rules are:

1. The thread title must be "Breguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......".
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....).
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built.
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge.
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion).
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified.
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has received 5 (five) points, they belong to ROYALTY, and must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer. Once someone has achieved 25 (twentyfive) points, they must wait 24hrs after the original post before being able to post an answer.
10. In order to correctly identify the flying object, an answer must mention a characteristic of the design which has helped with its identification, or include a reference to a publication or website, which will confirm the attribution.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitrator in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

As much as I'd love to continue the trend, three aerostats in a row must be some sort of record best left to be broken ... therefore we'll switch gears and play for something a little more widely-known and for those in the lesser points divisions a golden opportunity to rise - or they who are just-a-hankerin', the chance to put themselves on the board.

However, a caveat: Anyone in the 25 and up section must explain (or attempt to explain -- make it good ) the attire of the person in the vignette to be awarded the full point. This is not a prerequisite for others.

Good Luck.

[MattyBoy]

Hi,
I believe this is the machine of Comte Henri de la Vaulx. If I remember rightly, the monoplane flew for a short distance at St. Cyr towards the end of 1907.

There exists a photo of de la Vaulx wearing the most peculiar outfit for the flight tests. He looked like the Michelin man....

[Tork1945]

Originally Posted by MattyBoy

Hi,
I believe this is the machine of Comte Henri de la Vaulx. If I remember rightly, the monoplane flew for a short distance at St. Cyr towards the end of 1907.

There exists a photo of de la Vaulx wearing the most peculiar outfit for the flight tests. He looked like the Michelin man....

You will not believe it but the spelling of the first name is Henry not as in the French way "Henri". The same occurs with the first name of Henry Farman, often misspelled as Henri.

The characteristic design of de la Vaulx can be distinguished by the two propeller pusher configuration, driven by an internally placed engine. The wing construction was special with at the halfway an angle upwards.

Tork1945

[Rod_Filan]

Originally Posted by MattyBoy

I believe this is the machine of Comte Henri de la Vaulx.

Originally Posted by Tork

The characteristic design of de la Vaulx can be distinguished by...

You both make it sound like the Count designed and built this monoplane. There's a bit more to the story ...

The challenge will remain open to anyone wishing to elaborate.


Cheers

[MattyBoy]

It was Victor Tatin who constructed it, I believe.

[Tork1945]

Doing some more reading (Opdycke p.249) it is not a design by de la Vaulx but the second "full-size" design by Victor Tatin of 1907 which was tested by de la Vaulx and crashed by him (after a 70 meter 'flight') on November 18, 1907. The starboard wing failed with as a result that the machine crashed, probably not from a great height.

Also their is this summary of the story

November 19, 1907---At St. Cyr, in a monoplane (Antoinette 40 h.p.) constructed by Mallet, the balloon constructor, on plans of Tatin, De la Vaulx flew some 70m., smashing the machine in a second attempt. It was a pusher monoplane, with twin pusher screws, elevator and rudder on outriggers aft. De la Vaulx did not pursue aviation thereafter.

http://www.earlyaviators.com/evaulx.htm

Tork1945

[Tork1945]

The machine was long in construction.

In its issue of January 1907 L'Aérophile reported (p.5)

Le comte de La Vaulx n'apporte, d'ailleurs, aucune idée préconçue en locomotion aérienne et ses essais d'aéronat ne lui t'ont pas perdre de vue l'autre solution du problème, le vol purement mécanique.
Il vient, en effet, de commander un aéroplane, dès maintenant en construction dans les ateliers aérouautiques Mallet, à Puteaux, par les soins du savant aviateur Tatin et de l'ingénieur-aéronaute Maurice Mallet. L'appareil sera prêt au printemps et pourra prendre part aux grandes épreuve.s d'aviation récemment créées. Il comporte une surface sustentatrice unique, dont la forme générale rappelle sensiblement celle des ailes d'un oiseau en planement. En arrière, sont deux hélices métalliques, tournant en sens inverse, actionnées par un moteur extra-léger de << Antoinette>> de 50 chx. La surface portante sera de 40 m" et l'envergure de 15 mètres. La forme générale du nouvel engin .se rapproche beaucoup de celle de l'aéroplane, décrit dans L'Aérophile d'octobre 1906. Il présente de même, à l'arrière, une queue fixe terminée par un gouvernail horizontal et surmontée d'un gouvernail vertical ; mais tous les organes ont subi les modifications nécessitées par la puissance
plus grande de la machine.

The machine was already under construction in January 1907. The design of the machine was a joint effort of Tatin (described as a 'savant aviateur') and Maurice Mallet (ingénieur-aéronaute). De la Vaulx should have been the pilot of the machine. Interesting that the propellers were counterrotating and made of metal (photographs do not give that impression).

A further report was in L'Aérophile on April 1907, p.106, titled "L'Aéroplane de la Vaulx".

The article gives an interesting drawing from the machine in top view, which shows a construction with two tail booms.

There is another picture in the collection of the BNF more in detail

To sum IMO the machine can best be identified as the Tatin-Mallet Monoplane 1907 piloted by Comte Henry de la Vaulx and probably financed by the Comte.

Tork1945

[Rod_Filan]

Now we're getting somewhere!

Looks like I'll have to take on the role of Solomon on divvying up the point. Mattyboy identifying the De la Vaulx "crash-suit" and Tatin will play in his favor, while Tork making the proper connection between MM. Tatin, Mallet and Comte de la Vaulx must be recognized.

Still, I'm curious why some sources attribute the construction of the machine to Clement-Bayard. Any ideas?


Cheers

[Rod_Filan]

In its issue of January 1907 L'Aérophile reported (p.5)

Translated for convenience:

Comte de la Vaulx does not have, however, any preconceived notions of aerial locomotion and the test aéronat, as he himself does not lose sight of another solution to the problem of purely mechanical flight.
It is, indeed, to control an airplane, now under construction in the aerouautical workshops of Mallet, in Puteaux, in the care of the scientist aviator Tatin and engineer-aeronaut Maurice Mallet. The device will be ready in the spring and may participate in the great trials of newly developed aviation. It has a single lift surface, whose general form reminds essentially of the wings of a bird soaring. In back, are two metal propellers, rotating in opposite directions, motor-driven by an extra-light 50 hp Antoinette. The entire supporting surface spans 40 m with a breadth of 15 meters. The general form of the new engine is very similar to that of the airplane described in Aérophile October 1906. It presents as well, at the rear, a tail ending in a fixed horizontal rudder and surmounted by a vertical rudder, but all the fittings have been necessarily modified as required by the greater power of the machine.

Cheers

[Rod_Filan]

Alright then ... I may be predisposed this evening and unable to continue to comment on this challenge until tomorrow, so without further delay the point is awarded as such:

Mattyboy: (Comte de la Vaulx / crash-suit / Tatin) wins .1 for each (doubled for being first on all three counts) = .6 pts

Tork1945: Establishment of the troika (Victor Tatin / Maurice Mallet / Comte Henry de la Vaulx) wins .1 for each, plus .1 for his excellent presentation of sources and suggestion of a proper name for this machine = .4 pts

Mattyboy may proceed with the next challenge forthwith.

Scoreboard at the completion of Challenge #435: the Tatin-Mallet Monoplane of 1907, bankrolled and piloted by Comte Henry de la Vaulx.

86.40 Rbailey
81.60 aerohydro
52.95 Varese2002
40.20 Aquilius
30.50 Rod_Filan
29.45 richard B
**************
(those above this section must wait 24 hours before answering)
**************
22.30 Tork1945
9.40 Airarticles
9.00 Doc
8.50 Lodzermensch
7.70 ermeio
7.30 matte_kudasai
7.30 YavorD
6.30 AnYun
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
5.00 sobrien
5.35 Froggy
**************
(those immediately above this section must wait 12 hours before answering.)
**************
4.20 Wind In The Wires
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
3.00 sodium
1.60 Mattyboy
1.00 matthewk
1.00 Catfish
1.00 dhc2pilot
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 Tripehound Flyboy
0.20 EricGoedkoop