Breguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #444

[Tork1945]

Surprisingly frequently old aviation related pictures appear on Ebay (all nations) for auction. Possibly these photographs have been collecting dust for years somewhere. In some cases the picture is not correctly identified or is not identified at all.

This is one of the UNIDENTIFIED breed. Please give all the information you have on this machine.

Tork1945

Scoreboard at the start of Challenge #444:

87.40 Rbailey
84.60 aerohydro
52.95 Varese2002
40.20 Aquilius
31.50 Rod_Filan
29.45 richard B
**************
(those above this section must wait 24 hours before answering)
**************
24.30 Tork1945
9.40 Airarticles
9.00 Doc
8.50 Lodzermensch
7.70 ermeio
7.30 matte_kudasai
7.30 YavorD
6.30 AnYun
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
5.00 sobrien
5.35 Froggy
**************
(those immediately above this section must wait 12 hours before answering.)
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4.20 Wind In The Wires
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
3.00 sodium
2.60 Mattyboy
1.00 matthewk
1.00 Catfish
1.00 dhc2pilot
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 Tripehound Flyboy
0.20 EricGoedkoop

Previous challenges are here: Breguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge.

The rules are:

1. The thread title must be "Breguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......".
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....).
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built.
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge.
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion).
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified.
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has received 5 (five) points, they belong to ROYALTY, and must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer. Once someone has achieved 25 (twentyfive) points, they must wait 24hrs after the original post before being able to post an answer.
10. In order to correctly identify the flying object, an answer must mention a characteristic of the design which has helped with its identification, or include a reference to a publication or website, which will confirm the attribution.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitrator in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

[aerohydro]

The ailerons on the lower two wings are quite interesting ...

... and judging by the angled struts shooting off from the lower-most and top-most wings, the triplane seems to have been fitted with two outboard pusher propellers, just like on the Wright Flyer ...

... and also just like the Wright Flyer, it's a canard. At least, I think it's a canard.

Cheers,
Paul

[Rod_Filan]

Isn't that a wooden propeller laying on the floor?


Cheers

[aerohydro]

Actually, I think the photo shows two propellers:

• One that is on the floor, just underneath the wingtips that are closest to the camera.
  
  
• The other propeller just might be the object that's under the tall trestle behind the centre section of the wings.

Also wish to point out the 4 wheeled carriage that can be seen at the very RHS of the image. I do this, solely as I cannot discern any other useful information from this image.

[Rod_Filan]

Actually, I think the photo shows two propellers

I think you're right.


Cheers

[Tork1945]

As interest is so high in this challenge I bring in the second (and unfortunately last) picture of the same Ebay auction as the first one already shown. It has a connection with this first one which gives some guidance where to search. The propeller shown is from another form than the two propellers seen in the first picture. I deliberately ironed out the man holding the propeller, later I will publish the complete picture.

Tork1945

[Rod_Filan]

Circa 1911 Wright Bros. “bent end” propeller that became standard on Wright machines after 1912.

But you want to know the name of the whole aeroplane, don't you...


Cheers

[Tork1945]

A small hint, machine and propeller are from 1909 !

Tork1945

[Tork1945]

Extra hint, it is not from the USA. It is remarkable that these two photographs originate from a country thousands of miles (kilometers) from the USA, as these photographs were offered by a US dealer having found these at an attic somewhere in the USA.

AFAIK I have never seen these pictures printed in the country of origin, worse in the tomes available on the aviation history of this country the machine is only illustrated by a drawing. Maybe another prints or even more pictures of the machine and the scene inside the hangar are gathering dust somewhere in an archive.

Tork1945

[Aquilius]

It was in Russia 1909. The czarist ballon and airship troops were extending the Gatchina flying field for training purposes and it happens that the Wright Brothers, now touring across Europe, offered to provide 10 copies of their Fyler (obviously the Model A at that time) to the war ministry. The offer was not accepted. Instead it was decided to design some own machines.

In all 7 aircraft were constructed (or at least started) by different designers 1909/1910 under the supervision of A.M. Kovanko in Gatchina. Therefore 7 engines were aquired from abroad, ranging from 25 to 55hp. Finally the biplane of M.V. Agapov with 55hp Renault engine, featuring elements from Farman and Sommer types, proved to be the best one – and was used as trainer until 1912. But it remained an „only child“. Other French machines were purchased in the following years.

But back to our challenge. Among the 7 aircraft constructed in Gatchina there was one christened „ласточку“ - swallow. It was a triplane that followed the Wright design but it had curved wings – as to see in the picture. Also the horizontal tail had a spread layout, while the front elevator more closely resembled the Wright Flyer. The propulsion consisted of a 25hp REP engine, that drove two inward slanted propellers via bevel gear, to centre the airstream on the side rudder. After all the triplane was not finished when the project was closed in 1910. So no flight tests were undertaken.

The machine is to find in the literature as „Самолет АПВ“ – A.P.V. Aeroplane.
Designed by Alexander Petrovich Vernander (Александр Петрович ВЕРНАНДЕР - 1844-1918), professor of the Military Academy of Engineering, then second chief of the engineering bureau in Gatchina. He was killed by the Cheka in 1918.
(Shavrov might have misinterpreted the initials of Vernander – „Л“ (L) instead of „A“ (A) )

You do want a link to prove? Here is one with a sketch of that machine: Ãàò÷èíñêèå êîíñòðóêöèè


By the way, has someone the complete name (with life dates?) of M.V. Agapov?


Cheers

Aquilius