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Go Back   The Aerodrome Forum > No Man's Land > Pioneer Aviation


Pioneer Aviation Topics related to the aviators and aeroplanes prior to WWI

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Old 30 September 2012, 02:02 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Breguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #469

It took some time and preparation to present a new one. Please give all the particulars you have about the machine depicted and of the occasion and date when this picture was taken.

Tork1945


Scoreboard at the start Challenge #469:

91.50 Rbailey ☼☼
89.85 aerohydro ☼☼
52.95 Varese2002 ☼☼
42.20 Aquilius ☼
33.80 Rod_Filan ☼
31.45 richard B ☼
28.85 Tork1945 ☼
**************
(those above this section must wait 24 hours before answering)
**************
11.40 Airarticles
9.20 Doc
8.50 Lodzermensch
7.70 ermeio
7.30 matte_kudasai
7.30 YavorD
6.30 AnYun
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
5.95 Froggy
5.00 sobrien
**************
(those immediately above this section must wait 12 hours before answering.)
**************
4.20 Wind In The Wires
3.60 Mattyboy
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
3.00 sodium
1.00 matthewk
1.00 Catfish
1.00 dhc2pilot
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 Tripehound Flyboy
0.20 EricGoedkoop

The previous challenges are here :Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge


The rules are:

1. The thread title must be "Breguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......".
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....).
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built.
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge.
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion).
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified.
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has received 5 (five) points, they belong to ROYALTY, and must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer. Once someone has achieved 25 (twentyfive) points, they must wait 24hrs after the original post before being able to post an answer.
10. In order to correctly identify the flying object, an answer must mention a characteristic of the design which has helped with its identification, or include a reference to a publication or website, which will confirm the attribution.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitrator in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.
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Old 1 October 2012, 02:02 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Camille Vert's "Le Poisson Volant" airship of 1859. I think this craft would be described today as being a 'demonstrator model'. It combined both LTA and HTA design elements: for example, a series of wings can be made out just underneath the envelope. It was steam powered and had two propellers, one front and one rear, plus a horizontal rotor beneath the gondola.

I believe this photograph was taken at the Palais de l'Industrie in Paris. Vert also presented his dirigible to Napoleon III in the courtyard of the Louvre, and later exhibited it round the French provinces.

Paul

Last edited by aerohydro; 1 October 2012 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 1 October 2012, 07:57 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Timing is everything, and sleep is important.

I concur with Paul ; the 1859 Camille Vert model dirigible airship, built for demonstrative purposes. Recognized by its fish-tail rudder, general fish shape envelope and propellers and planes at either end of its gondola.

My translation from:
Robene, Luc. L'homme à la conquête de l'air: Des aristocrates éclairés aux sportifs bourgeois. pub. 1998, pp. 35, 36
Quote:
Thus, more subtle but no less significant, the architecture of the Poisson Volant [Flying Fish] of Camille Vert (1859), reveals in its own way the desire to reconcile the inventor a natural heritage with a certain aerodynamic efficiency, but also the motive power more modern.
Because the Flying Fish, of which it seems to have been several versions presented in Paris, at the Palace of Industry, starting from 1859, was to be equipped with two propellers and a steam engine.
"The entire apparatus [which measures 9 m], weighs 15 kg. The machine appears in figure 4."
It is thus that a system was built to be exhibited: a midway between the reduced model and the actual size needed for human use.
In the press in the month of January 1860 we learn while "The aerial ship has the form and the name of a fish (...) because of its complete resemblance with the dolphin (...).
Just as the fish moves right or left by his tail, so is the Flying Fish heading in the same direction using a rudder, which compared to the balloon a size equal to the tail of a fish would be the same proportions. With the least possible effort, the rudder position is the extremity of the aerial ship, forced to describe a curve and consequently has to end. It is also this type of fish shape given the balloon which offers the least resistance to the direction of movement. Section perpendicular to this direction being smaller than regular balloons."
In what way does Camille Vert intend to replace the muscular strength of a fish, with a mechanical driving force equivalent?
By simply using "a small steam engine to be heated by spirits of wine."
A description of the system elaborated by the ingenious mechanic is quite explicit: "2 propellers placed under the balloon, the extremity of a horizontal axis and the vertical plane passing through the length of the device, that is to say one at the front, the other at the back, and united by a steam engine at the center of the nacelle, are used to direct the Flying Fish. Tractive effort is directed onto the frame solidly fixed around the aerostat ..." (30).
It is probably useful to clarify the mechanism designed by the former army engineering officer did quite rightly draw criticism from the press who recognized this work had for some a certain mechanical interest, while emitting few reservations about its real efficiency: "To summarize for anyone who saw him walking the Poisson Volant in the Palais de l'Industrie, the problem of aerial navigation seems finally solved. The aerial ship, once in perfect balance in the air and propellers in motion, moves to advance in all directions, like a fish in water (...) [but] it is impossible to say that an aerial ship built in large proportions, can walk and fight against the winds ..." (31).
We say, for our part, that the realization of Camille Vert was also presented in the provinces, which was the snapshot of the first photographic representation of a flying apparatus in history, a good symbol of the possibilities and aspirations of the time in matters of motorized flight mechanics.
It would be wrong to believe that a majority of projects also had clear outlines - even analysis - the problem is that while at the same time: the aspect aerodynamics, the lift, and the size of the motive power driving flight.
Indeed it must have been possible to consult a sufficiently representative sample of dynamic creators of the era to understand that if the first two points are on the whole fairly well treated, the propulsion of aerial devices, however, remained addressed in a very vague way.
While the impetus given between 1852 and 1855 by the engineer Giffard and his steam engine could have proven decisive, in the end we see emerge a mass of projects in which the engine, curiously, does not represent the essential questions of the inventor.
Before returning more detail on what could be the influence of Giffard, or at least what may be perceived as the fragments of a technical heritage, let us for a moment look upon the centers of interest of those men who form the procession of aerostatic inventors, under the Second Empire and observe their difficulties.
What can we distinguish then?
A mosaic of ideas, some tests, but no actual tangible common thread.
1859 broadside announcing the M. Vert model airship exhibit at the Palais de l'industrie:
Navire aérien, le poisson volant, inventé et exécuté par M. Camille Vert, ingénieur-mécanicien ...
Quote:
Airship, Poisson Volant, invented and executed by M. Camille Green, mechanical engineer ... / Paris, Camille Vert, rue de la Pépinière, 86.
Driven by a steam engine and steerable in flight in all directions, at the Palace of Industry, experimental sessions every Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday at 3:00 sharp. The machine below has operated in the presence of the Emperor Napoleon III.
Cheers
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1859.Vert.Poisson.Volant.jpg (30.2 KB, 12 views)
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Fliegen ist notwendig. Leben nicht.

- Suicide note left by pioneer aviatrix Melli Beese

Last edited by Rod_Filan; 1 October 2012 at 08:02 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 1 October 2012, 11:40 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
... the snapshot of the first photographic representation of a flying apparatus in history
I've seen that claim as well, but don't know if that's incontestable. What of Stringfellow's 1848 steam-powered monoplane, which had been photographed? Not sure if that photograph was contemporary with the aircraft being tested. Perhaps it dates from a later year?

Last edited by aerohydro; 1 October 2012 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 1 October 2012, 12:50 PM   #5 (permalink)
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This is another scan of the original 1859 print on 'papier albuminé' which according to the text was retouched by Camille Vert himself (I think I see traces of it). It the presentation of the "POISSON VOLANT' in the Palais de l'Industrie in 1859.


At least it is very early image - ten years before the Avitor (1869) - but I will not waste much time in naming this as the first image of an aerial machine. The picture gives a look in history about 150 years back, what is really amazing.

Camille Vert seems to be researching and inventing for more than twenty years and looking from the picture he had the concept of a dirigible (ballon dirigeable) already right in his head although in reality he was not able to realize it in fact. The power of the steam engine (2 hp) was hopelessly inadequate.

I searching in contemporary French newspapers of 1859 (le petit Parisien) to get something more on the presentation of the machine, which looked to me somewhat big to be named a model.

This a somewhat bigger view from the image presented by Mr. Rod Filan. The propeller seen in this drawing at the underside of the nacelle is not visible on the 1859 image.




There is another poster in the Library of Congress collection here. Camille Vert had also an interest in Hélicoptères. It also gives that le POISSON VOLANT was at the 1868 Aeronautical Exposition in London, where notwistanding the text on the poster the performance was less than impressine. There is a report on this in the Journal of the Aeronautical Society.

Cordialement

Tork1945
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Old 1 October 2012, 12:53 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Correct identification

The POISSON VOLANTE [Flying Fish] designed by Camille Vert shown here during the presentation of the machine in 1859 in the Palais de l'Industrie.

Scoreboard at the end of the Challenge #469:

91.50 Rbailey ☼☼
90.85 aerohydro ☼☼
52.95 Varese2002 ☼☼
42.20 Aquilius ☼
33.80 Rod_Filan ☼
31.45 richard B ☼
28.85 Tork1945 ☼
**************
(those above this section must wait 24 hours before answering)
**************
11.40 Airarticles
9.20 Doc
8.50 Lodzermensch
7.70 ermeio
7.30 matte_kudasai
7.30 YavorD
6.30 AnYun
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
5.95 Froggy
5.00 sobrien
**************
(those immediately above this section must wait 12 hours before answering.)
**************
4.20 Wind In The Wires
3.60 Mattyboy
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
3.00 sodium
1.00 matthewk
1.00 Catfish
1.00 dhc2pilot
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 Tripehound Flyboy
0.20 EricGoedkoop

#470 is in the hands of Mr. Aerohydro
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Old 1 October 2012, 04:33 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tork
At least it is very early image - ten years before the Avitor (1869) - but I will not waste much time in naming this as the first image of an aerial machine. The picture gives a look in history about 150 years back, what is really amazing.
You're absolutely right. It's hard to make these "first" claims stick. Although the only earlier aerostat photograph I know of is the 1857 ambrotype of John Steiner's balloon at Erie, Pennsylvania. - Now, if using dirigibility as the yardstick we discount it at, as not being a legitimate "flying apparatus", then yes, Vert's Poisson Volant was probably the first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
What of Stringfellow's 1848 steam-powered monoplane, which had been photographed? Not sure if that photograph was contemporary with the aircraft being tested. Perhaps it dates from a later year?
It's worth investigating to find out.

Either way, I especially like the Poisson Volant photo ... the faces in the crowd and the clothes they are wearing really hammers home the point of the age of the darn thing. Thanks for finding it(!) and thanks for posting the unaltered image. Reversing the direction obviously didn't fool Aerohydro for a minute.


Cheers
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File Type: jpg 1857.Steiner.Ambrotype.jpg (44.2 KB, 14 views)
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Old 3 October 2012, 12:11 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Camille Vert competed with Stringfellow for the 100 Pound prize awarded by the Aeronautical Society of Great Britain in 1868 during The first exhibition of the Society in the Crystal Palace starting 25 June 1868.
No. 4.—Light Engine and Boiler for aerial purposes, one-horse power, weight 131bs. J. Stringfellow.

No. 36.—Small Model of Steam Engine for propelling Hydrogen Gas Balloon, weight 21bs. Camille Vert.

No. 37.—J. Stringfellow's smaller Engine
The verdict of the Jury was clear
The Steam Engines set in motion, and exhibited in competition for the Prize,were No. 35, by Camille Vert, and Nos. 4 and 37, both by Stringfellow. No. 35 weighed under two pounds, but the model was too small to enable any accurate test to be applied for ascertaining its power, it appeared to keep up steam well, as noticed in the repeated demonstrations in propelling the Model Balloon in various directions within the Crystal Palace Building.
The Engine No. 4, by Stringfellow, from its size and power, may be considered something more than a mere model. The cylinder is 2in. in diameter, stroke 3in., and works with a boiler pressure of lOO1bs. per square inch; the engine making 300 revolutions per minute. The time of getting up steam was noted; in three minutes after lighting the fire, the pressure was 301bs., in five minutes 501bs., and in seven minutes there was the full working pressure of lOO1bs. When started the engine had a fair amount of duty to perform in driving two four-bladed screw propellers 3ft. in diameter, at 300 revolutions per minute.
The Jury decided for Stringfellow on the following grounds
At a Meeting of Council, held at Stafford House on the 20th of July, it was agreed that this engine as a complete working machine met the condition of the Society's award, for " the lightest engine in proportion to its power from whatever source the power may be derived." The Prize of £100. was accordingly allotted to Mr. Strinqfellow.
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Old 3 October 2012, 10:06 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Closing in on Camille Vert this is a snippet of information excerpted from the French periodical Cosmos
On lit dans le Moniteur : « Le 27 octobre dernier [1859], une nouvelle machine aérienne, inventée et exécutée par M. Camille Vert, a été expérimentée dans le Palais de l'industrie, en présence de Sa Majesté J'empereur. Cette machine, à laquelle est adapté un système ingénieux de parachute pour le sauvetage des voyageurs, a fonctionné de la manière la plus satisfaisante, se dirigeant à volonté dans tous les sens. L'inventeur de cette curieuse découverte, après avoir été complimenté par Sa Majesté, a été autorisé de faire une exposition publique de son ballon dans le Palais de l'industrie.
Cosmos, revue encyclopédique hebdomadaire des progrès des sciences et de leurs applications aux arts et à l'industrie Volume 15 (July - Dec. 1859) - pp. 591
The snippet reports that Le Moniteur (issue 27 October 1859) gives information about an aerial machine invented and built by Camille Vert. He has experimented with this machine in the Palais de l'industrie (Paris) in the presence of the French emperor (Napoleon III). This machine, which has an ingenious parachute system to save the passengers (sic) has functioned satisfactory as turned at will in all directions when in the air. Camille Vert was complimented by the emperor, who allowed him to exposit the balloon in the Palais de l'Industrie open to the public.

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