DR-1 (Sands): Builders Group - Page 21

AchimEngels · 17 November 2004, 12:21 PM

Agreed

and

Thanks!

franzkait · 17 November 2004, 04:34 PM

about engines, to swing a 9 feet prop, you need a big engine. Oberursel and Mercedes had 15 liters ! A 145 Warner is the only realistic engine. A Dr1 only flys like a Dr1 with a 9 feet prop.

The last 30 years people start building 110 Le Rhones. But I still cann not see any engine or parts. For example Auburn valves and ball bearings....................

AchimEngels · 17 November 2004, 08:05 PM

Well...at least they started.....

This is why I just carefully mention that we are thinking about it. I am not an engine man and only would participate in the project I mentioned above.

Fokker210,

We have only done a very rough and basic calculation so far, but to tell what we would charge is really not possible at the moment.

Franzkait,

I agree, but the prop is not the only thing that makes a Fokker Dr.I fly like a Fokker Dr.I. Don´t forget about the gyroscopic effect of the revolving masses of a rotary engine. No plane equipped with a stationary engine -whether it is a Warner or the Siemens SH14 - ever will fly like a Fokker Dr.I even if equipped with a authentic airscrew.

Achim

William · 17 November 2004, 09:03 PM

Gentlemen,
The topic of repro rotaries has been discussed several times before. It remains my opinion that restoring originals is still about 1/3 of what we would estimate the cost of producing a repro would be. We have the technical ability to produce Le Rhones and also have the drawings. The cost (what we would pay just to produce it and not to profit from it) is well more than twice what we paid for our Le Rhone engines. The only way to reduce the cost would be to mass produce them and there simply is not the market to do so. Look at what Le Rhone Auburn is asking for what parts they have produced. Try closer to >$100.000 for a complete engine. We are casting bodies for the oil pump this week, just the unmachined casting will cost us the same to produce as what we paid for an original in N.O.S. condition and we aren't even factoring in the engineering costs. It simply is not cost effective to reproduce them yet, it is not technically difficult to do so. Sorry if this seems negative but it is the way things are. Of course we're a little crazy so it will always be a dream of ours to do so especially a BR-2. Keep looking, you'll find a rotary and they are fun to restore.
Regards,
William
Canvas Falcon Engineering
www.canvasfalcon.com
canvasfalcon@msn.com

franzkait · 18 November 2004, 04:26 AM

Achim " you are not an engine man ". A warner and Siemens can not swing an authentic prop. Do not look about horsepower, look how many liters this engines have.
A Siemens and Warner have about 8 liters, Oberursel 15 ! And the gyroscopic effect is what the pilots like, if they are able to handle it.
William, a company in England is making 4 Br-2 . For shure it will cost 100 000 $ to 200 000$ made in the USA , but in same countrys like Poland maybe 50 000$. About Auburne, to ask 95 $ for a valve ! This valve is maybe 35 $ and the pump bearing 15 $.

How many people in the Forum have a rotary, and how many are flying one ?

Jim Bruton · 18 November 2004, 05:32 AM

...i also thought about what Franz just said- if you have the plans, why not look at a - forgive me everyone - poor nearly 3rd world country to make it. Quality would be your main oversight, but then again, there are a lot of ex-Soviet machining houses and operators that could handle this. I know this is a big undertaking, but all you need is one rabid fan in that country to get onboard and get enterprising.... so yeah, how about Poland? If they can build ships (remember Lech Walesa?), they should be able to do this. Franz, where are you located?

By the way, if anyone thinks this is TOO outside the box, a friend of mine went to Russia a few weeks after it stopped being the Soviet Union. As they no longer had use or any way to sustain their larger nuclear ice-breakers (outfitted with ICBMs) on their own, he talked them into leasing them to him to take high paying passengers to the North Pole. He filled up TWO ships on the first trip, at a ticket price of $50,000 per person. I went for free because I filmed it. And he brokered the deal with no upfront money.

franzkait · 18 November 2004, 08:53 AM

Hello Jim, I live part time in Europa and know the production possibilities in England , France, Germany , Poland , Check , Lithuania and more. To build a rotary for maybe
50 000 $ is possible but, how many like to have one ? 10 engines and more is ok. but not 1 or 2.And about quality, what quality do we need? like 1918 or 1930 ? 1930 is good enough . Al the Siemens and Warners have a quality standard like 1930.

AchimEngels · 18 November 2004, 11:24 AM

Franzkait,

its a real pitty that you read my postings just one sided, hearing the things you want to hear. I was never speaking of a Warner or a Siemens spinning a authentic prop, I was just reffering about the lack of gyroscopic effect of these engines. I was also not even classifying the effect of the revolving masses. Anyway it is up to you to understand what I have said that way.

Apart from all that I do not have to look for the number of "litres" the engines have, since I am in no way interested in any other engine than either the original ones for my planes or exact reproductions.

William,

I absolutely agree with you.

Achim

franzkait · 18 November 2004, 04:59 PM

Achim, do not take things to serious.

Jim Bruton · 18 November 2004, 06:22 PM

I just got my 2nd and very fast response from the ROTEC radial folks- they could have started on this newer larger R3600 radial a year ago but, for obvious reasons, needed to recoup the cost of the R2800 110hp radial. Sounds like they are ready to take some orders and I am seriously considering jumping onboard. 150hp! Listen, I think the engine is the 800 pound gorilla here, not the prop. If I have to swing a shorter prop, can't i still have it made in alternating woods that look pretty darn close to an original? If I catch anyone walking up to my DR1 and whipping out a measuring tape to measure the prop, he is going to get a swift kick in the .....

Still, I have 2 years before I am flying, and maybe someone will resurrect a rotary for us!

thank you ALL for your contributions here- makes life interesting!