My Fokker DVII Project

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Originally Posted by gipsymoth236k

Well...

As posted elsewhere, I have an original Nieuport 28 C-1 fabric covered aileron, and it indeed has very small-edged pinked rib tapes over the aileron ribs...

Also, this original Fokker Dr.I rudder from 588/17 (w/n 2258) has frayed tape edges around its fabric reinforcing patch of the top hinge...

Regards, Gary Sewall

Hi Gary,

I remember seeing your post about the Nieuport 28 C-1 aileron, and I would like to say, what an outstanding find! I didn't remember seeing any reference to small pinked rib tapes, and of course that is a very interesting fact! It is also very interesting because the blue, as Dan-San said looks to me as though it is a French blue. They were typically very light, such as applied to your aileron, and every other piece of evidence suggests to me that the US used Bitish VB2, or something similar to it. I say VB2 because the US entered the war relatively late, and I would assume that the British were using VB2 by this time. As I am sure we all know, VB2 was very dark, very similar to if not the same as WW2 British blue. I remember seeing a statement here on the Aerodrome that WW1 British blue was used until the 1930's, or at least the colour did not change until then. Still, VB2 was very dark, and I tend to believe that generally the US used dark blue generally. As you said in reply to Dan-San, the roundels are definitely US roundels, and of course you are correct, they are US roundels.

Wow, that Dr.1 rudder is a real find too! What a fantastic relic! Is it in a museum, or a private collection? Are you at liberty to say? Sorry about my ignorance, its' location is probably well known, but I didn't know about this particular Dr.1 rudder. WOW!

Jeff: I apologise if I am hijacking your thread, I certainly don't mean to! I love your work! It is very inspiring and is obviously being carried out meticulously and very authentically. I hope this side issue is of interest to you, and helps you in some way. After seeing Garys' photo of the Fokker triplane rudder, maybe frayed edges were used on reinforcing patches and tapes on WW1 German aircraft! It goes to show, you can never stop learining! I have often thought about reproduction WW1 aeroplane components, and I think there is a strong argument for not making reproduction parts exactly the same as the original parts. If fabric, for example was re produced too precisely, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible for future restorers, researchers and / or replica builders to tell the difference between original items and replica items.

Regards, David.

[gipsymoth236k]

(Sorry Jeff, just a bit more, please?)

David (and maybe Jeff too!),

In contrast to the original Fokker Dr.I rudder from 588/17 with the 'frayed-edge' reinforcing patch, here is the only other know surviving Dr.I rudder from a somewhat earlier batch (unknown w/n, but showing the earlier style Dr.I hinge design from the later version hinge on 588/17). We see here that the very same reinforcing patch around this top hinge is of more typically WWI German cut as 'straight-edged'!!!!!!!!

Both original Dr.I rudders are held by museums in England today, including a THIRD original - the MVR Dr.I 425/17 rudder buried deep inside, somewhere...(and I have a photo to prove it!).

Interesting stuff, eh?

Regards, Gary Sewall

['14-'18aviationcollector]

yes, sorry Jeff! ... I think it's still relevant though, because the results of this discussion might benefit him and others, and is hopefully useful information.

I have found that there are very many inconsistencies when it comes to WW1 aircraft manufacturing details. I am not surprised that the edging method varies from one batch to another, but what is a lot more difficult to determine is a pattern or a rule, if there ever was one. I suspect that there would have been tendencies rather than rules. One batch and / or manufacturer may have had or used straight edged patches and another batch and / or manufacturer might have had or used frayed edged patches, rib tapes etc. Obviously it would be natural to assume that towards the end of the war, they were taking shortcuts and not fraying the edges of tapes and patches, which would have saved a lot of time and money, but to illustrate the point that such tendancies are difficult to predict and to document, the earlier Dr.1 rudder has straight edge tapes and the later one has frayed edges! If I had to guess, I would have guessed that the opposite would have been the case.

I hope that the IWM (I assume that's who has it) is able to relocate the rudder from 425/'17! It is a priceless relic! I have heard that the two sides of the rudder fabric still exist in private collections, and I certainly hope that this is the case, that they both still exist, and are being carefully looked after. I have talked to Langdon and Bob Waugh about the other rudder, not the white one or the one from 425/'17, which is also white of course. I think Bob was the first person to suggest this, and I have to admit that I was skeptical at first, but believe Bob's theory to be true. He believes, as I do now too, that this rudder is from one of the Dr.1's which was captured by the British. There is a photo of it being wheeled along the road. I could probably find a copy of this photo, but I do not have a copy readily available. Although the rudder is a very bright yellow, and the Dr.1 in the photo appears to be a very dark (ie. not bright) colour, I have learned recently that yellow can appear to be much darker in photographs than it actually was. It might have even been Langdon who told me this, and I only met him for the first time a couple of months ago, so it is new knowledge for me, unless Bob explained it to me years ago, which is very likely when he explained his theory. If he did explain this to me, I might have forgotten in the meantime. It seems that in the same way that British roundel blue, and any other blue of course, appears much lighter than it actually was, yellow or at least some yellows appear to be much darker than they actually were on some of the early films. I know that in the photo you provided, the colour looks greenish, but it can only be the bright yellow rudder, due to the fact that there are so few Dr.1 rudders still in existence. Please let me know if I am wrong! If you have good photos of this rudder, have a close look at the photo of the Dr.1 fuselage being wheeled along the road, you will notice some minor details that suggest that the rudder in the museum - and I think I know which museum it is in, is the same rudder illustrated in the photo, when it was still attached to the fuselage. Interestingly, IIRC, Langdon suggested this same theory to me just a couple of months ago, at which point I informed him that I had had this exact discussion with Bob Waugh about 15 years or so ago! Two brilliant minds had come to the same conclusion independantly of each other, and I think they are both correct! Incidentally they live within a few Kilometres of each other, but have not discussed this issue with each other to my knowledge.

Sorry, now back to the Fokker D.VII ..... what is the correct procedure in a case like this? Should it be started in a new thread? I hope this discussion is of interest to readers.

[gipsymoth236k]

David,

It is captured Dr.I 147/17 of Jasta 10, piloted by Ltn. Ludwig Keseling that we see being walked along the road by British troops...sorry but it had a RED rudder. Keseling was previously with Jasta 11, thus the RED cowling, wheel covers, aft fuselage and tail, but he transferred to Jasta 10 apparently with his Dr.I 147/17 still being in traditional Jasta 11 RED colors when he was shot down on March 24, 1918 near Morieul by anti-aircraft fire while attacking an observation balloon, and was thus bestowed with the British capture "G158" designation.

This original and existing YELLOW Dr.I rudder was donated by Captain/Major E. David, RFC. I too wonder which Dr.I it might have originally belonged to??????? Perhaps it could be LVR's yellow Dr.I 454/17 rudder taken after his nasty crash on March 13, 1918 as a grim injury souvenir, then given away after the war to someone of importance? Hummmm...

...Perhaps a new thread is indeed warranted now, sorry Jeff.

Regards, Gary Sewall

[baldeagle]

For what it's worth, the Curtiss Jenny at NASM, original fabric, Springfield built, recently put on display downtown, has tapes with large pinked edges, about 4 per inch I believe. Curtiss built examples apparently used frayed tapes.




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['14-'18aviationcollector]

Originally Posted by baldeagle

For what it's worth, the Curtiss Jenny at NASM, original fabric, Springfield built, recently put on display downtown, has tapes with large pinked edges, about 4 per inch I believe.

Hi baldeagle, thanks for the information! 4 per inch is very large! Was it definitely built during the war? I assume that they all were, but I just wanted to ask. Some types were still in production after the war, although I am not sure if this applies to the Jenny or not, and many were re covered after the war. Do you know if the covering definitely dates to WW1?

[baldeagle]

I'm quite sure it's 1918 factory fabric. I helped restore the Jenny now at the College Park Aviation Museum, and we used the NASM one as a pattern (in fact while documenting it I found an old Liberty Bond flyer tucked behind the firewall). For the tapes we used an old pinking machine that NASM had at Silver Hill, and made tapes with the large pinks. So at least in the US it would seem that pinked finishing tapes were being used in 1918.

edit: From the NASM web site: America by Air , transferred from the War Dep't in 1918.




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['14-'18aviationcollector]

Thanks for the information. Fantastic!! I wish I could have been there!

[Jeff Brooks]

I took the wheel outside to dope. I used Nitrate dope to do the shrinking.


You can see how I had sewn a 6" wide leather reinforcement and a fabric reinforcement around the air valve. Per the comments on this thread, I did not pink the reinforcing fabric.

[Jeff Brooks]

While looking over my landing gear, I noticed a crack in the trailing edge of the bottom of the wing fairing. I am not sure how the piece was cracked, but I suspect that I rolled the plane over something and damaged it. The crack goes all the way through the wood.



So it looks like I will have to cut out the damaged material and repair it.


I will follow AC 43.13-1b's directions for repairing wood surfaces, and post the method here.
I wanted to keep the fairing authentic, but looking how easily the wood was cracked, I have changed my mind. I will cover the wood with fabric and then paint it. I believe the fabric will provide additional strength.