Airdrome Aeroplanes N-17 Questions

Bookmaker · 19 October 2007, 04:48 PM

I am toying with the idea of purchasing and assembling an Airdrome Aeroplanes full scale Nieuport 17 kit. I realize that it is not a replica for the purist, but I would appreciate any input pro or con. I would like to install a 7 cylinder Rotec radial.

I am a licensed, instrument rated private pilot with some, but not nearly enough tailwheel time at this point. I am able to work with my hands and have built a car kit including rebuilding the engine.

Dale

Jeff Brooks · 19 October 2007, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookmaker

I am toying with the idea of purchasing and assembling an Airdrome Aeroplanes full scale Nieuport 17 kit. I realize that it is not a replica for the purist, but I would appreciate any input pro or con. I would like to install a 7 cylinder Rotec radial.

I am a licensed, instrument rated private pilot with some, but not nearly enough tailwheel time at this point. I am able to work with my hands and have built a car kit including rebuilding the engine.

Dale

I think Brian Coughlin has a metal frame for a N11 for sale. you could try that

Bookmaker · 19 October 2007, 06:35 PM

Jeff, do you have any more info on it, or where to get info?

Dale

Jeff Brooks · 19 October 2007, 07:10 PM

Brian is not an Email kinda guy, so I will call him tomarrow and ask if it is ok to forward his number. and i'll ask if he still has the frame.

Joe Perkel · 20 October 2007, 07:49 AM

Hi Dale,

Marianna Huh?...If I recall, that's up on the North Border with Ga. I'm in Miami but, have a home in Sebring about halfway up to you.

I have a few comments / observations on that version of the Nieuport-17, as I am currently evaluating the method of construction, (Al tubing). If you are evaluating that design from Baslee, you are no doubt aware of the late Graham Lee's plans-built versions. It is my understanding that Roberts version has a dual spar sub wing -vs- the single spar Lee version. Aside from that, I suspect they should be fairly close in specs. A quick check on the Baslee site and, I do not see a specifications list for any of the full size versions,...or have I missed them somewhere?

Some years back, I had been fortunate enough to correspond with Graham Lee on a number of subjects prior to his passing. His designs, (and Roberts), rekindled my interest and desire for a personal aircraft. I had been heavily researching options when the birth of my daughter intervened but, I am now back and starting anew.

The Nieuport is a beautiful aircraft and the Rotec an equally beautiful engine, ...my choice for my full scale Sopwith Baby. (Note that the N-28 went down with this engine as the result of faulty ignition wires, something to remember). Otherwise, I have not seen any data to indicate this engine to be other than reliable.

My observations on Al tubing to date.....

1) Light as a feather, well documented properties, excellent quality control.

2) Where are the upper design limits for power and gross weight? (I am actively researching this very issue).

I think the answer to # 2, lies in the empirical evidence of existing designs, not a few dozen here and there mind you, ....but mass production examples such as the Quad City Challenger with thousands of flying examples. So this is an aircraft with a gross weight of some 960 lbs. In looking at accident data for this aircraft, it would appear that the known airframe failures are pilot induced, missing hardware, acrobatics, hard pull ups.....etc. Otherwise, this would appear to be a fine method of construction for aircraft at and below this marker.

I highly recommend "How to build Ultralights" by Beaujon Ultralights as a design reference. beaujon ultralights home page This silly little stapled pamphlet, is jammed packed full of appropriate and highly useful information regardless of whether you design, plans, or kit build.

Hope to provide some "food for thought" , input as requested.

Regards

Joe Perkel

Bookmaker · 20 October 2007, 11:03 AM

Hi Joe, you are correct, Marianna is at the intersection of Florida, Georgia and Alabama. I am from Miami and my dad still lives there, just a little south of Dade Jr. College North campus.

I think I saw one of the Challengers you referred to this morning at our local airport. The construction appeared like that of the Airdrome replicas. Aluminum tubes and gusset plates. The guy had just recently bought it. I was talking with him since his radio was picking up so much engine noise, I couldn't understand him when he was transmitting. I happened to be flying back to the airport while he was in the pattern.

I talked to Robert on the phone the other day about the N17 and we discussed engines, size (I'm 6'2" and weigh 215) wing sweep modifications etc. By the way, there are some basic specifications on the full size N17 on the site.

The accidents you referred to were they Challangers or Airdrome planes? Also, I know of the N28 accident, but didn't know why the engine quit. Obviously something to watch.
Dale

Joe Perkel · 20 October 2007, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookmaker

The accidents you referred to were they Challangers or Airdrome planes? Also, I know of the N28 accident, but didn't know why the engine quit. Obviously something to watch.
Dale

Dale,

I was referring to the Challengers specifically as they have significant history in the database...... This due to their sheer numbers.

I have not graphed the data yet but, a quick peek at the NTSB records for the Nieuport / Fokker crowd, is suggestive of two main culprits, loss of control during T/O & landing....and engine out. Structurally, the record appears quite favorable.

The N-28 Rotec failure is more accurately described as "failure of incorrect ignition wiring" rather than just outright failure.

Joe

RobW · 20 October 2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N704FS

The N-28 Rotec failure is more accurately described as "failure of incorrect ignition wiring" rather than just outright failure.

Are you referring to the N28 that crashed at the Dayton 2005 Dawn Patrol? If so you are mistaken... that N28 was powered by an M-14 not a Rotec.

As far as I know, the Ray Jarvis' N-28 (Baslee) plane is still flying.

Bookmaker · 20 October 2007, 01:07 PM

Joe, that scenerio would be pretty consistent with overall GA mishaps I would think.

Dale

Joe Perkel · 20 October 2007, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobW

Are you referring to the N28 that crashed at the Dayton 2005 Dawn Patrol? If so you are mistaken... that N28 was powered by an M-14 not a Rotec.

As far as I know, the Ray Jarvis' N-28 (Baslee) plane is still flying.

Rob,

Yes, I was referring to that a/c and I stand corrected, thank you. At one time, engine make and model was listed on the NTSB reports, in this case, I do not remember seeing this.

I was working on the model assumption from memory and got it wrong. Causal factor is as on the report.

Joe