Sopwith Snipe Project

brisfitworks · 12 June 2008, 06:59 AM

Nick:

Yes! S.20 is the post war code for tinned steel intended for tanks!
That must be a post war list, that "S" code is a B.S. number that replaced the RAF spec system about 1919. Before that the RAF seemed to only call it "tinned steel" or "tinned M.S." and that is all I've found on drawings and other references like the F2b parts list from 1917.

The post war Specs on S.20 / Tinned Steel is
C = .12 {.12}
Mn = .50 {.60}
S = .07 {.05}
P = .07 {.05}

"thoroughly annealed then uniformly tinned"

(numbers quoted from 1920 Brown Bros. Catalogue. Compared to spec's stated in "Materials of Aircraft Construction" F.T. Hil, Pitman, London 1940. Numbers from which in {brackets} ).

The place Vet suggested sound ideal; the forming of food cans is more extreme than a fuel tank - they certainly have the expertise to make a formable product.! I don't know what the strengths of what they use for cans but antique car guys us "body panels" which are "killed" SAE 1020 sheet sheet. The "killed" part is important for this part of the making of the steel gives it the formability we need. The S.3 spec, on th eother hand, implies 12 pt carbon which means SAE 1012 (1010 is more readily available)

I haven't given a try on getting tank material yet and the Camel tanks we made are of aluminum. I have played with my rolling mill to practice forming rolled seems for the Brisfit and I used scraps of "body panel" steel sheet with success.

The tinning must be before forming so that the tin is inside the seam to help the solder wick its way into the joint and make a good, well sealed bond. It is also important from a corrosion resistance standpoint.

On a slightly different line but maybe useful and related to tanks, did you get my Baker fuselage images on the disk Greatwarpilot sent?

There is over 50MB's in 221 photos dated 1999. Ed and I talked about him getting them off the computer at the museum to include but I am unsure whether you got them or not. There are details of the tanks and shots inside from aft of the very details you are working on, as well as many others.

If not give me a mailing address and I will burn a copy for you and post it to you.

Cheers,

Bill.

NostalgAire · 12 June 2008, 11:00 AM

Leatherhead,

If you can find out the name and contact info on the company Roger found, I would be interested in it. Thanks.

Scott

Nick · 12 June 2008, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leatherhead

Nick,

I spoke with Roger last night and asked him about the "tinning" of steel. The company he found offers terne-plate, which is steel sheet plated with an alloy of lead and tin. I caught him on his cell phone, and he was away from the office where the company contact info. is located. I hope this helps in some way.

Thanks Leatherhead,
I'd be most interested to know who that is. I'm still trying to find somewhere local, but no luck so far. Would be good to have a back up plan. Have come across a couple of websites that have it listed but on contacting them find they no longer have it. One lot had it listed but on contacting them had never heard of it!

Cheers, Nick

Nick · 12 June 2008, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brisfitworks

Nick:

Yes! S.20 is the post war code for tinned steel intended for tanks!
That must be a post war list, that "S" code is a B.S. number that replaced the RAF spec system about 1919. Before that the RAF seemed to only call it "tinned steel" or "tinned M.S." and that is all I've found on drawings and other references like the F2b parts list from 1917.

The post war Specs on S.20 / Tinned Steel is
C = .12 {.12}
Mn = .50 {.60}
S = .07 {.05}
P = .07 {.05}

"thoroughly annealed then uniformly tinned"

(numbers quoted from 1920 Brown Bros. Catalogue. Compared to spec's stated in "Materials of Aircraft Construction" F.T. Hil, Pitman, London 1940. Numbers from which in {brackets} ).

The place Vet suggested sound ideal; the forming of food cans is more extreme than a fuel tank - they certainly have the expertise to make a formable product.! I don't know what the strengths of what they use for cans but antique car guys us "body panels" which are "killed" SAE 1020 sheet sheet. The "killed" part is important for this part of the making of the steel gives it the formability we need. The S.3 spec, on th eother hand, implies 12 pt carbon which means SAE 1012 (1010 is more readily available)

I haven't given a try on getting tank material yet and the Camel tanks we made are of aluminum. I have played with my rolling mill to practice forming rolled seems for the Brisfit and I used scraps of "body panel" steel sheet with success.

The tinning must be before forming so that the tin is inside the seam to help the solder wick its way into the joint and make a good, well sealed bond. It is also important from a corrosion resistance standpoint.

On a slightly different line but maybe useful and related to tanks, did you get my Baker fuselage images on the disk Greatwarpilot sent?

There is over 50MB's in 221 photos dated 1999. Ed and I talked about him getting them off the computer at the museum to include but I am unsure whether you got them or not. There are details of the tanks and shots inside from aft of the very details you are working on, as well as many others.

If not give me a mailing address and I will burn a copy for you and post it to you.

Cheers,

Bill.

Hi Bill,
Once again thanks for your detailed reply. You come up with such interesting information. You're right about the date of the Tinned steel spec. The schedule is dated Oct 7th 1918, right at the end of the War. I'm still trying to find a supplier but no luck as yet here or in your part of the world.
Will keep looking but at some stage may well have to look at an acceptable alternative.
I'm just realising now how useful the schedule is. Whereas most original drawings have the spec written on them, occasionally they don't so can find it there. Also in a case such as the fuel tank where no drawings are
available I can at least see all the standard fittings listed as part of it and what they're made of.
I don't have a copy of your photos of Barker's Snipe, but would absolutely love a copy if that's possible. They are just incredibly helpful to see things from different angles and how things were done. Not everything was done the way it was originally drawn and they help to clarify. I'll send you a PM with my address.
Many thanks

Cheers, Nick

Nick · 12 June 2008, 11:16 PM

This is the plate from the Illustrated schedule on the Petrol and oil tanks.
Also part of the corresponding parts list that relates to it. (can't get the whole page in the scanner)

There's also a page which details how to go about ordering the parts. Maybe they're still on the shelf somewhere in an RAF depot

Cheers, Nick

brisfitworks · 13 June 2008, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick

There's also a page which details how to go about ordering the parts. Maybe they're still on the shelf somewhere in an RAF depot

Cheers, Nick

Funny you should mention that, they might be!
In 1967, the museum in Ottawa crashed their Avro 504k. They sent it to RCAF base Trenton for repairs. Some bright irk thought to check stores. He found enough parts for the repairs and enough to make AN ENTIRE SECOND FLYABLE AIRCRAFT! (another friend has a similar story about engines for Spitfires when he was doing a study for his MBA at an RAF base in 1984)

I got your snail mail coordinates and will make up a CD. I will fill the balance of the space with anything I have that might be of use to you.

Still haven't found the banker's box of Snipe stuff. Found my Siskin, Bulldog and Gladiators boxes of blueprints but not the Snipe one (god I have way to much stuff and to much disorder!!) Will dig down to it soon and see if I can get readable prints off for useful details. It will take me a bit, I have to reassemble my darkroom yet, but will do and post you some 8x10's of whatever I find.

Cheers,
Bill.

P.S. You are very welcome, helping is something I always try to do for others when I have already been through the trouble of solving something. I, one time had an issue with an employee and since that day 12 years ago, had this as a signiture for my work e-mails:

"Every useful effort is useful to others. Only the selfish expend effort
to solve their immediate need without considering how they
may benefit others. Always consider how each act can be improved
to ease your future efforts and the efforts of others."

On top that, all this 'Droming is helping me with my Brisfit - it is forcing me to think and many years of gathering data and thinking is suddenly coming together and a huge pile of connections is spilling out the answers I have been seeking

My thnaks goes out to you and all the others that have helped me.

Leatherhead · 13 June 2008, 05:50 AM

Nick & Scott,

The company name is Precision Steel. They are in Chicago. I called them this morning, just to make sure they exist. Yep, they are there!

800-323-0740
Precision Steel Warehouse, Inc. - Home

Coated Metals - Tin Coated - Precision Steel

NostalgAire · 13 June 2008, 06:34 AM

Awesome! Thanks so much Leatherhead! I love this website!

Scott

Time to figure out a metal order.....

NostalgAire · 13 June 2008, 11:25 AM

Talked to Precision Steel a while ago. They currently only have a couple of different sizes of terneplate and nothing in the sizes I need. Of course they would be happy to special order a production run of the sizes I need...

Oh well... the search continues...

Scott

Nick · 13 June 2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brisfitworks

Funny you should mention that, they might be!
In 1967, the museum in Ottawa crashed their Avro 504k. They sent it to RCAF base Trenton for repairs. Some bright irk thought to check stores. He found enough parts for the repairs and enough to make AN ENTIRE SECOND FLYABLE AIRCRAFT! (another friend has a similar story about engines for Spitfires when he was doing a study for his MBA at an RAF base in 1984)

I got your snail mail coordinates and will make up a CD. I will fill the balance of the space with anything I have that might be of use to you.

.

That's a great story Bill, it makes you wonder just what is still out there gathering dust on shelves.
I look forward to your CD, that really is very much appreciated.

Cheers, Nick