Sopwith Snipe Project

[Joe Perkel]

Nick,

I very well may be off the mark but, here's what I did to try to figure it out.

Your pictures are really great, love that transition on the spar ends to meet the fittings! Great to see it up close.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Joe Perkel

Nick,

I very well may be off the mark but, here's what I did to try to figure it out.

Your pictures are really great, love that transition on the spar ends to meet the fittings! Great to see it up close.

Hi Joe,
The dotted line B2623 is just showing the location of the Tie strap within the spar and C2192 is the spar itself as you said.
The part I can't work out is within the other circles. Hard to read but looks like it says item 1A, between the ribs. Can't read the other ones.
Your access panel suggestion also makes sense to cover that area but no evidence of that on the Barker Snipe. It would appear that they had several ways of doing it over it's development.

Cheers, Nick

[Leatherhead]

Nick,

I believe what the note pointing to the left circle says is

Item 1A (or 14), AD4082.

Looks like it is calling out item 1A (or 14) from drawing AD4082. All three circles are referencing drawing AD4082. That's my guess.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Leatherhead

Nick,

I believe what the note pointing to the left circle says is

Item 1A (or 14), AD4082.

Looks like it is calling out item 1A (or 14) from drawing AD4082. All three circles are referencing drawing AD4082. That's my guess.

Thanks Leatherhead,
Looking at it again, you're right, it does seem to say AD4082 which I guess has the finer details on it. Unfortunately I don't have a drawing of that number. I'm not at home at the moment but dont recall any other drawings with an AD prefix. Must have some significance.

Thanks again

Cheers, Nick

[brisfitworks]

Nick and Derek:

If you guys are correct about that being an AD prefixed dwg number then that may hint at alot.

AD prefixes all seem to come from the Air Ministry. "AD" can be roughly translated "Air Directorate". Though the department changed names several times and sometimes seemed to report to the Supply and Munitions. It was the engineering department for the Air Ministry and was responisble for dwgs that were used to standardize stuff. For an aircraft it may be GA's, configurations and installations, or it might be installation of equipment from other manufacturers on several aircraft. AD drawings are what you find most of still in existance at places like the PRO in Kew.

It is likely this means these details are attachment for other equipment or a service item (access panel fits) since AD dwgs often support manuals and parts lists. I'll dig up my Unwin's list of drawings from the directorate and see if that part number is there. Mostly these are Royal Aircraft Factory dwg's but Unwin did include a selection of other types.

Bill

[Nick]

Originally Posted by brisfitworks

Nick and Derek:

If you guys are correct about that being an AD prefixed dwg number then that may hint at alot.

AD prefixes all seem to come from the Air Ministry. "AD" can be roughly translated "Air Directorate". Though the department changed names several times and sometimes seemed to report to the Supply and Munitions. It was the engineering department for the Air Ministry and was responisble for dwgs that were used to standardize stuff. For an aircraft it may be GA's, configurations and installations, or it might be installation of equipment from other manufacturers on several aircraft. AD drawings are what you find most of still in existance at places like the PRO in Kew.

It is likely this means these details are attachment for other equipment or a service item (access panel fits) since AD dwgs often support manuals and parts lists. I'll dig up my Unwin's list of drawings from the directorate and see if that part number is there. Mostly these are Royal Aircraft Factory dwg's but Unwin did include a selection of other types.

Bill

Thanks again Bill,
That all makes sense. I have been through the schedule and there are no drawings with an AD prefix, just A, B, C, D and the standard parts SL. When Sopwith altered anything it would be assigned a number and added to The Alteration box and signed on the plan. So an Air Ministry "AD" would appear to be the answer.
It looks like there were different Aldis sight mounts during the development which would also explain the different styles of centre ribs, and maybe an access panel or different mount in the centre. Still can't guess what the outer notes would refer to. I'll have a look through all my Snipe pics and see if any other equipment was attached at any stage.
Many thanks again to Bill, Joe and Derek for your input. The detective work continues

Cheers, Nick

[brisfitworks]

Nick:

Unfortunately, my microfilm of the center-section is a bit over-exposed and I can see the numbers you have identified but not read them, BUT, I have good mainplane dwgs. And on them is a similar reference, and the strange shape is very clear on my upper mainplane dwg - D.2425. I looked on these mainplane dwg's because I had a nagging suspicion that these were post war Navigation light bases. It is like I said about AD dwg's - they define features common to many types of aircraft and where standardized specifications for installation exist.

Check your mainplane dwg, mine says "Item 2 AD4082 ..." So my bet is that the 'Item' on Port of ctr-section is a Nav Light base attachment block (my Siskin wing dwg's show nav light bases at tips and center of wings).

Still not sure what the stbd item on ctr-section is.

Pure guess and no evidence, but I am sticking with Aldis or other gun sight mounting for the central "Item" note. Keep in mind that Hyland gun camera mounting points is another of the items of additional mounting added to wings. The most simple explanation is that this AD drawing is for the covering detail to access the fwd mounting bolts of the Aldis sight mounting tube that we do know about. (do you have the detail dwg's for this Aldis sight mount? I found several that are very crisp and clear that I can print for you.)

Are you certain that all three areas of confusion say AD4082? I suspect this dwg is for nav light only. If the one on the stbd side definitely is stated as AD4082, then I suspect AD4082 has a detail for a terminal block installation with access panel for connecting wires between wing panels for the nav lights, except that it is too far from end rib for this purpose. Also there is a dashed line at this point and mirrored on the other side. I am still at a loss to properly explain this details.


Here are items that might be of interest from Unwins list of Royal Aicraft factory and RAE drawings. Most relate to Dual Control modification but sometimes these are useful. For example, a petrol tank dwg for a small 25 gal version may have very good details of how fittings were added to tank and identical to fittings on normal tank which may be unclear on a dwg you are trying to work from. (I went through all the pages of Unwin's catalogue and found no other references to AD4082, but this is only Royal Aircraft Factory dwg's and not a Directorate dwg list)



Snipe Conversion to Two-Seater
--------------------------------
AD90 Arrangement of Dual Controls (scale elevation)
AD91 Single 25 Gallon Petrol Tank
AD94 Assembly of Oil and Petrol Tank
AD95 Arrangement of Dual COntorl (plan)
AD96 Arrangement or Dual Control (end view)
AD2264 Arrangement of Fuselage
AD3407 Petrol and Oil Tank
AD3562 Arrangement of Engine Controls
AD3565 Arrangement of Flight Controls
AD3577 Arrangement of Cowling
AD3586 Arrangement of Instruments and Fittings
AD3595 Modifications to Fuselage
AD3596 Arrangement of 3 Ply Bracing for Rear Cockpit
AD3597 Arrangement of Fuselage Joints
AD3951 Arrangement of Petrol and Oil Piping


I found my copy of the Ctr-Section "Tie Strap" B.2623, dated 5.4.18, and it too says 51-1/4" between ctrs of the joint rod holes. Whereas, my spar dwg is like yours 52" OAL less a 1/2" at each end to joint rod holes (C2192 dated 29 Oct. 1921)

I have gone through all my Snipe Microfilms slides a few times now and started sorting by group. Since I am about to print a few of these, are there any other details you are lacking? I found quite a collection of details on controls and covering and markings.

I am reminded how this aircraft is like the SE5 - both very complicated by the number of parts and the challange to make some of them. You really are a trooper Nick!

Cheers,
Bill.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by brisfitworks

Nick:

Unfortunately, my microfilm of the center-section is a bit over-exposed and I can see the numbers you have identified but not read them, BUT, I have good mainplane dwgs. And on them is a similar reference, and the strange shape is very clear on my upper mainplane dwg - D.2425. I looked on these mainplane dwg's because I had a nagging suspicion that these were post war Navigation light bases. It is like I said about AD dwg's - they define features common to many types of aircraft and where standardized specifications for installation exist.

Check your mainplane dwg, mine says "Item 2 AD4082 ..." So my bet is that the 'Item' on Port of ctr-section is a Nav Light base attachment block (my Siskin wing dwg's show nav light bases at tips and center of wings).

Still not sure what the stbd item on ctr-section is.

Pure guess and no evidence, but I am sticking with Aldis or other gun sight mounting for the central "Item" note. Keep in mind that Hyland gun camera mounting points is another of the items of additional mounting added to wings. The most simple explanation is that this AD drawing is for the covering detail to access the fwd mounting bolts of the Aldis sight mounting tube that we do know about. (do you have the detail dwg's for this Aldis sight mount? I found several that are very crisp and clear that I can print for you.)

Are you certain that all three areas of confusion say AD4082? I suspect this dwg is for nav light only. If the one on the stbd side definitely is stated as AD4082, then I suspect AD4082 has a detail for a terminal block installation with access panel for connecting wires between wing panels for the nav lights, except that it is too far from end rib for this purpose. Also there is a dashed line at this point and mirrored on the other side. I am still at a loss to properly explain this details.


Here are items that might be of interest from Unwins list of Royal Aicraft factory and RAE drawings. Most relate to Dual Control modification but sometimes these are useful. For example, a petrol tank dwg for a small 25 gal version may have very good details of how fittings were added to tank and identical to fittings on normal tank which may be unclear on a dwg you are trying to work from. (I went through all the pages of Unwin's catalogue and found no other references to AD4082, but this is only Royal Aircraft Factory dwg's and not a Directorate dwg list)



Snipe Conversion to Two-Seater
--------------------------------
AD90 Arrangement of Dual Controls (scale elevation)
AD91 Single 25 Gallon Petrol Tank
AD94 Assembly of Oil and Petrol Tank
AD95 Arrangement of Dual COntorl (plan)
AD96 Arrangement or Dual Control (end view)
AD2264 Arrangement of Fuselage
AD3407 Petrol and Oil Tank
AD3562 Arrangement of Engine Controls
AD3565 Arrangement of Flight Controls
AD3577 Arrangement of Cowling
AD3586 Arrangement of Instruments and Fittings
AD3595 Modifications to Fuselage
AD3596 Arrangement of 3 Ply Bracing for Rear Cockpit
AD3597 Arrangement of Fuselage Joints
AD3951 Arrangement of Petrol and Oil Piping


I found my copy of the Ctr-Section "Tie Strap" B.2623, dated 5.4.18, and it too says 51-1/4" between ctrs of the joint rod holes. Whereas, my spar dwg is like yours 52" OAL less a 1/2" at each end to joint rod holes (C2192 dated 29 Oct. 1921)

I have gone through all my Snipe Microfilms slides a few times now and started sorting by group. Since I am about to print a few of these, are there any other details you are lacking? I found quite a collection of details on controls and covering and markings.

I am reminded how this aircraft is like the SE5 - both very complicated by the number of parts and the challange to make some of them. You really are a trooper Nick!

Cheers,
Bill.

Bill,
You keep coming up with the most amazing stuff. Many thanks again.
I've had a look at D2425 and it does seem to show a Nav light with a similar AD4082 although mine shows item 1. My drawing was originally done in August 1918 and is of the later type wing with the larger ailerons. It also has a note that this drawing has been retraced by HG Hawker Engineering in 1923 which may suggest these items were added then.



I wonder if some of these were mods done much later in it's service life. However my centre section drawing is dated May 1918 and doesn't bear the
retracing note.

I've had a look through all my Snipe pics and the centre section where the Aldis sight is does occasionally vary in that some have the centre ribs exposed as per Barkers Snipe and some seem to have the ribs covered. A couple of the prototypes also in addition to the Vickers guns also had a Lewis gun mounted on top of the centre section.

As for the Nav lights, I'm pretty sure they were not standard, so maybe these notes are for later additions.

I have the drawing B2760 the Aldis sight support tube but thats the only one.
I don't have the detail for A3354 and the adjusting mechanism. Come to that I don't really know anything about the Aldis sight itself.

Many thanks again Bill.

Cheers, Nick

[Nick]

Originally Posted by brisfitworks

Nick:

I have gone through all my Snipe Microfilms slides a few times now and started sorting by group. Since I am about to print a few of these, are there any other details you are lacking? I found quite a collection of details on controls and covering and markings.

Hi Bill,
Thanks very much for the offer, it’s very much appreciated, I was wondering whether I could take you up on that. I’ve been through all my control drawings to see what I’m missing. I have Jim Kiger’s excellent drawings but it’s always nice to have the original ones as well.
These are the drawings I have for the controls:
B2427 Control Shaft
B2429 Rudder Bar
B2430 Control Column
B2431 Counter shaft control
B2434 Rudder Bar stay
B2435 Front Bearing for Control Shaft
B2436 Clip on front bearing (control shaft)
B2787 Footstep

Basically any control drawings that aren’t on that list would be great to have if possible. In particular I’m missing:
B2021 Control column fork
A2809 Rudder bar fitting
A2810 Rear Socket
A2812 “T” fitting on control shaft
A2813 Rudder bar column
A3272 Fork pivot on rocker shaft
A 3273 Elevator control Bearing

The centre section is going to keep me busy for a while yet I think, but the controls are next on the list to have a go at.

Cheers, Nick

[brisfitworks]

Nick:

You are more than welcome, just glad I can help you.

Nav lights were implemented in the war for home defense night fighters. Not sure what form they took but there seems to be quite of bit of standardizing and retrofitting post war.

You are likley quite correct about 1923 being a time when all these mods got added to the drawings.

What you are stuck with now is the decesion of what paint scheme do you use for then details are driven by that original. If you did Cdn Wm. G. Barker then you'd also have to go for unbalanced ailerons and the smaller fin and rudder.

I will print you up Aldis sight mount bit. As for Aldis sight details, I have an original still in its transport case! so I can give you dims to make a replica.

I have about 100 slides in the Control, Engine Controls and related groups. There were plenty around the range of items you need so I should be able to find some you are missing.

Cheers,
Bill.