Who is building an Albatros??

[Der Grüne Flieger]

OK, it seems there has been a good amount of interest in the last few weeks and much talk about building replica Albatrix. As Jeff Brooks did with the DVII crowd, it might be a good idea for everybody working on any kind of Alb to step forward and declare themselves.

If I may, I suggest you do the following;

1) Give the model of your interest
2) Describe how far along you are in your build, drawing up plans, fuse under construction, Wings being built, engine being used? That sort of thing.
3) Maybe talk a bit about any problems you are experiencing

The advantage of coming together like this are easy to see;

1) Everybody brings different skills to the table, so what you find to be a show stopper may be a cakewalk for some other builder.
2) Why should everybody reinvent the wheel, if I have already figured something out, I could share it with the group and help someone else along.
3) If I am building a part that someone else needs, why not make 2 instead of 1? Again, I could speed someone up and get maybe get help from someone else who is building a part I need.

So, come on in and lets see who's who.

Phil

[RobW]

Phil,
It may be beneficial to look at where the albatross replicas are currently.

Digging through the FAA Database I show 6 registered in the US.
1. D.V N12156 RHINEBECK AERODROME MUSEUM, NY
2. D.V N17DV TRAINING SERVICES INC DBA, VA
3. D.V N36DV WINDWARD AVIATION INC, WA
4. D.V N3767A SALE REPORTED, CA (anyone know where this one went?)
5. D.V N986RS SEAVIEW PRINCESS INC, NJ
6. C.III N1903C SHERIFF ROBERT C, IL

The address in the registry for N986RS (Seaview Princess) is no longer valid, so if anyone knows where it is, I'm interested.

I do not show any on the Canadian Registry. I don't have data from other contries yet... give me time though..

Hopefully this is helpful.

Rob Waring

[sheppo]

Hello Phil

I'll kick off shall I?

1) Give the model of your interest

albatros D5a

2) Describe how far along you are in your build,
Fuselage under assembly,+ piles of wing bits hiding in the shed

drawing up plans
Kinda...its a work in progress.

engine being used?

Ive got a chev 292 in dads hangar that needs to be rebuilt, modified, tweaked, juiced up and have a gearbox attached.

3) Maybe talk a bit about any problems you are experiencing
Hahahaha how long have you got? Im re-engineering the whole plane backwards from old drawings that I have some faith in and my measurements, photos etc. It is the planning 3 moves ahead that takes the time. I have a massive amount of good quality info and images but its the collation and cross referencing that takes the time to ensure what Im making is as per the original. Not including the engine bay mind you, thats a different story due to the wider engine etc.


3) If I am building a part that someone else needs, why not make 2 instead of 1? Again, I could speed someone up and get maybe get help from someone else who is building a part I need.

If anyone out there has access to an original anemometer they could supply drawings for or have new working copies made of.....these would be quite popular to many ww1 german builders, not just V-strutter drivers.

Im likely to be casting new fuel control system faces/surrounds for my bird next year so I could do a job lot.
I also need the guts put into some original instrument cases I have, Ill take some pics and post them to this list soon. I may be interested in trades on some of them.
Magneto winder and switches are required too. drawings would be fine as I can cast them up in resin to recieve modern guts where required.

chris

[sheppo]

Ok here goes.
Currently the biggest issue with accurately building a D5a is the lack of good source material. Bob Waughs drawings included in the NASM book are a good start but as they cover a period of his research and are not final copies so to speak (covered elsewhere in other threads) they do contain errors usually only found out after the fact. You will not find good info for both the wing washouts, nor how components are routed, internal blocking of spars etc. Rib dimensions from the NASM are somewhat different to the AWM D5a. The NASM ribs vary significantly in chamber while the AWM ribs are very constant. Lower wing rib profile is quite different too.
The ellipses for the fuselage are well plotted by Bob in the NASM book although of the 2 drawings contained in the NASM book, the one with the chart of longeron locations above and below the C/L is the better. I have found variation on these measurements too. The ellipses once made with the gussets ready to cut longerons in make things tricky. If you build the ellipses as per the heights denoted you will find that the longerons wont necessarily fit perfectly. I laid out the longeron in position to make my cuts and found that some are out of whack by a centimeter. Its not too much of an issue if you make the gussets large enough as theres plenty of meat left. If you arent happy you can always remake the gusset and reglue in position before you cut the longeron in.
BTW Bobs drawings are good enough that you will even get the noticable kink in the upper and lower skins mid way down the rear fuselage. It isnt a smooth transition on 5390.
The #3 bulkhead sits at an angle and is a pain, Ill tell you how I tackle this in the next month or so, assuming I get the tail blocks done and can start skinning soon. It is glued in as of 12:00 last night.

The tail....aaaaaaargh This is a bugbear. Because the tail group has compound
curves you are perhaps going to waste a bit of ply here. Im using hoop as opposed to Birch so perhaps this may not be too much of an issue to some. The lower surface around the skid has double thicknesses of ply too so watch this space on how it works out, once I can get the photos matched and nail down the internal structure.
One of Bobs drawings in the NASM book shows the skin layout incorrectly so beware. Because my NASM book fell to pieces as I opened it I cant confirm which one.

Currently the tail is coming together so I hope to shed some light on this. Line sanding is critical too as any irregularities in the substructure will cause poor glue lines. That said, the lower skid profile is curved so you cant just line sand it straight...fun huh? BTW Upper longerons have doublers in the tail area and lower ones dont.

Thats enough of the bad stuff for the moment.

The good news

I have really good drawings for elevators, rudder and the tail skid fittings.
I have wing component tracings and measurements ,plus those for washouts.
I have notes and such for the routing of spars and horizontal stabs, wingtips, while the stab drawings taken by another person from 5390 are very close they do have errors (sore point here, I completely made them all the stab components to find they are incorrect and wont match )
I have plenty of photos (about 1000) to assist in shaping and laying out the internal structure & all the cockpit control drawings etc are coming together now.
Fittings, I have all the fittings measured up although inexplicably Im missing the outer metal plate for the skid bracing wire fitting. Its the easiest to get and the only one I cant find....
I have ammo drum measurements, seat measurements, strut tracings, windscreen, etc etc.
Sounds good Huh? Its been along time getting all this stuff and Im think certain folks at the AWM are sick of the sight of me
All I need is time to draw them all up in a good program or buy a new drawing board to start drafting them (i prefer this as its more hands on)
The plan is to put together a really good set of 1:4 drawings (for modelling use only of course...) in the near future and attach photos of the original and my new construction as I go. Im hoping to get the plane up on its legs by easter next year so while Im stuffing around watching glue dry I'll be able to finally create some serious plans. I do plan to sell them at a reasonable rate to cover a fraction of my time and effort but rest assurred they will be worth it to any larger scale modeller. The drawings will be based on 5390 with notes where I have info for 7161.

chris

[Deperdussin 1913]

Albatros d.Va, planning stages. Going to use the same 292 Chevy engine setup as Chris.

I'm going to start building the fuselage early this winter, if I have sufficient blueprints by then.

-Ed

[Der Grüne Flieger]

Originally Posted by RobW

Phil,
It may be beneficial to look at where the albatross replicas are currently.

Digging through the FAA Database I show 6 registered in the US.
1. D.V N12156 RHINEBECK AERODROME MUSEUM, NY
2. D.V N17DV TRAINING SERVICES INC DBA, VA
3. D.V N36DV WINDWARD AVIATION INC, WA
4. D.V N3767A SALE REPORTED, CA (anyone know where this one went?)
5. D.V N986RS SEAVIEW PRINCESS INC, NJ
6. C.III N1903C SHERIFF ROBERT C, IL

The address in the registry for N986RS (Seaview Princess) is no longer valid, so if anyone knows where it is, I'm interested.

I do not show any on the Canadian Registry. I don't have data from other contries yet... give me time though..

Hopefully this is helpful.

Rob Waring

Hey Rob,

Damn good point! These firms have flying a/c. What kind of engine, who built them, what plans?? Even what kind of problems??? Do you have the ability to get contact info on these firms from your data source??

Maybe also good to list the museum pieces, for starters;

1) The DVa in San Diego Air and Space
2) The Applebys DVa in Seattle's Museum of Flight
3) The Stropp at the Smithsonian
4) The DVa at AWM

Add to it as you see fit!

Phil

[Der Grüne Flieger]

Originally Posted by sheppo

Hello Phil


3) If I am building a part that someone else needs, why not make 2 instead of 1? Again, I could speed someone up and get maybe get help from someone else who is building a part I need.

If anyone out there has access to an original anemometer they could supply drawings for or have new working copies made of.....these would be quite popular to many ww1 german builders, not just V-strutter drivers.

Im likely to be casting new fuel control system faces/surrounds for my bird next year so I could do a job lot.
I also need the guts put into some original instrument cases I have, Ill take some pics and post them to this list soon. I may be interested in trades on some of them.
Magneto winder and switches are required too. drawings would be fine as I can cast them up in resin to recieve modern guts where required.

chris

Hey Chris,

Of course you and Koloman are on everyone's mind here. I didn't want to start spouting a bunch of names, but there is one guy I should probably talk about. Not as well known, and maybe not likely to post is Al Cvelbar. He is a flyer and has some troubles posting with his computer. He is building a DVa with a Ranger. When I visited he had the fuse mostly done and the wings built but not covered. Have not talked with him in a while. Big Al, you out there? How are you doing??

Chris, on your anemometer, don't remember if we talked about this, but talk with Vet (Upilot). He may be able to help you on the it and the other instrument stuff. On the mags, talk to Jeff, he was working on that, might have finished it. Maybe you could put something together with him.

P

[RobW]

Originally Posted by Der Grüne Flieger

Hey Rob,

Damn good point! These firms have flying a/c. What kind of engine, who built them, what plans?? Even what kind of problems??? Do you have the ability to get contact info on these firms from your data source??

Maybe also good to list the museum pieces, for starters;

1) The DVa in San Diego Air and Space
2) The Applebys DVa in Seattle's Museum of Flight
3) The Stropp at the Smithsonian
4) The DVa at AWM

Add to it as you see fit!

Phil

Phil,
The addresses are easy enough... this data is pulled from the FAA registry which includes the address. If you go to:Aircraft Registration Inquiry
and type in the N-Number, you'll get all the info for that particular plane.

If you are interested in a particular type I can provide this info offline.

I use a different method to collect my data... I download the entire database at once and do some geek magic to pull the data I want. I want to be the next Leo Opdyke as far as keeping track of where the replicas are. I've built my database where I can add the particulars such as the actual engine and plans used... etc... (the FAA database frequently has unknown for engine type).

As far as airworthiness... I don't have that info and would interested in recording it. The best I can get from the FAA database is when the last time any action occurred. A lot of the WWI type planes on the registry either no longer exist, have been exported, or no one updates the records any longer.

Right now, as I mentioned before... the seaview princess albatross has a bad address, I've found pictures of that particular albatross on the web, in a european museum... but those are old pictures so I don't know if they are current or not. If anyone knows, I'd appreciate an update.

Rob

[Deperdussin 1913]

In about a month I'll be starting a practice 1/2 side of fuselage to practice building techniques, mostly skinning. I will be using lower quality/cheaper wood, with similar attributes. Might build a few practice empennages, since these are supposed to be a difficult area.

What thickness and variety of Birch ply is correct to use? I have a lot of experience with 1/8" Baltic Birch. It's pretty easy to bend and work with, I use it to make the sides on my guitars. Would this be similar to what was used? I can get it in other thickness easily. Would Whitewood (spruce) be a good substitute for aircraft grade spruce in my practice mock-ups?
-Ed

[sheppo]

What thickness and variety of Birch ply is correct to use?

2mm is the general rule, the german ply is very thin on 5390 even around the engine bay and for long term usage Im going with 3mm there and on the lower surface back to the rear U/C attachment point.

On the upper and lower side of the tail its 1.5mm, although the sides of the skid use a double layer of 1.2-1.5mm .

While generally speaking the fuselage is skinned from the tail forward the lower skid area is skinned last so that you have access for reasons yet to be decided. Probably to allow repairs to the skid to be made without deskinning the whole lower surface of the plane, which would also require deskinning the sides as well.

If you are going to do some skinning practice Id suggest starting with the junction of the skid and fuselage and do a bottom rather than a side. The side scarfs are somewhat easier but the bottom side (or top) is where the 'fun' lies. If you do this area you will be training yourself on the hardest part. Id also suggest doing your practice with the correct ply. I made the aft part 1/2 of the fuselage years back in a different ply and its a whole different kettle of fish to better quality plies.

My instruments are a good way off in terms of being required so Im just starting to raise the issue at this point. My cash is tied up with getting my U/C tubes, struts and turnbuckles etc done for some time.

Phil
I assume AL was going to put a firewall in, how did he plan to do it?

chris