Nieuport research

Jim52 · 21 December 2008, 08:56 AM

Before I go any further, let me define the word "Hypothesis" as I'm using it.
I certainly don't want any "Mud Slinging" started on the basis of word usage.
Itallics are mine.
Hypothesis: An unproven theory, proposition, supposition;
tentatively accepted to explain certain facts
or to prvide a basis for further investigation or
discussion.

OK, here goes. As I was drawing up the Horizontal Stab. from Rozendaal's,
I wondered why there were so many pins, rivets and welds in the leading
edge center. Unless, it was made in two halves and then joined with the
22mm tube. Here's what there is of the logic:

1 Shorter pieces would be easier to handle and transport from workstation to
workstation.
2 Locating the first thru hole is much easier from the end than trying to find
the center of the tube.
3 Once located, the first hole can be used to locate the rest.
4 The holes can next be used to locate the tube in the bending fixture,
assuring an accurate length and bend location.

For the purpose of my model, I'm planning on breaking the structure here
anyway but, for those that are building full scale, this could have some
bearing. How to confirm or deny? Unless some museum or a very lucky
collector has this area x-rayed........? Unless there are those with "Private
Knowledge" that would like to point us in the right direction. Let the discussion
begin.

Jim

[IMG]

[/IMG]

brinesharks · 23 December 2008, 06:27 PM

I thought all the pins and rivets were to hold the 'joiner' in tightly because of the way the tail is held on to the fuselage. The front locating pins are about the only things stopping the tailplane from leaving in flight! I wonder if the joint is there because the 'joiner' is actually the critical part and is welded up in a jig. To then get it on to the tailplane easily they cut the tailplane tubing and slip the joiner on.

baldeagle · 27 December 2008, 08:10 AM

How good are the Macchi drawings for the Nieuport 10? Are there more German dwgs for this than the ones shown on the Nieuport page?

-

Robert M · 29 December 2008, 12:27 AM

Hi,
I have around 300 blueprints taken from the original Nieuport drawings for the 23, 24 & 27 airframes. My original intention was to scan them so that they could all be put to CD ROM, I just haven't found the time yet...

If any one wants a specific detail or component, I could look into supplying this for you. I will scan the drawing index list, PM me if you would like a copy of this.

Robert

brinesharks · 5 March 2009, 11:30 PM

The thread isn't dead yet! I'm working on the ribs - hopefully have something to show soon!

Robert M · 7 March 2009, 03:52 AM

Hi Brinesharks,
I have retrieved the drawings from storage, but have lost your email. Please can you remind me which drawings you needed? I will see if I have them.

Thanks,

Robert

brinesharks · 5 April 2009, 04:46 AM

I'm stumped by the Nieuport LE that needs routing/spindling out. But because of the internal taper, I'm not sure how to do it:

Here's the cross section (in mm):

But it's not hollow along it's length, the hollow is 'scalloped' like this sketch (top view):

As you can see I need to do a few of the scallops along the length. There are four pieces like this.The material is Spruce so it's relatively easy to work. Any suggestions?

Machinbird · 5 April 2009, 08:32 AM

Brineshark,
Two approaches come to mind.
1. Turn a piece of oil hardening tool steel to the dimensions required to cut the hollowed out portion (including the radius) and then cut several cutting faces into the shape with adequate relief, or possibly laser, waterjet, or wire edm to cut the tooth profile. What type of machine you use this cutter on would be dependent on what you have or plan to have. After hardening you would have to sharpen the tool.
2. Find someone with a tracer mill, make a pattern piece to follow and cut your profile that way. Something like an old Deckel tracer mill which can do 3D work by following a pattern. Spadmaker had a Spad piece that had a very complex shape and after thinking about it, I suspect they used a lot of tracer mills during WWI although it could also have been made with a custom cutter.
Making your own tools can be very liberating.

Sid

John McKenzie · 22 April 2009, 02:16 AM

Hi, Brinesharks. (English term "spindle-moulder is same as US term "shaper ) Originaly the inside shape would probably be done first . In those days they would use a "French cutter" ,which is (usually for ballance ) a double edged blade made from 4mm tool steel (now swiss steel or H>S>S> ) which fits through the slot in the spindle, being locked by the vertical bolt. With a 20mm spindle (eg. the small french KITTY w/work machine ) & a 21mm cutter projection you could get a 30 mm radius to the ends of the pockets.(the timber haveing 1mm clearence to the spindle. you MUST of course use a "fence" though you don't have to take the whole cut in one go. This is now considered a VERY DANGEROUS practice as there is guite a risk of grabbing & kick back..You HAVE to use "Stops" & drop the wood onto the revolving cutter, feed it along to the end stop & take it off ..here is the risky bit. This can be replaced with a safer method useing a round cutter block with shaped cutter knives (Old style Whitehill ,with back up support (still not currently allowed in UK ) or more expensive "safty block" & cutters ) This uses same method of "drop on" but the radius generated will be greated ..Depends on bklock dia,. Alternate method regires a spl. router cutter to the shape of the pocket .(You could do this by hand on bench grinder,..As its small dia. ballance not too critical ) AT the begining & end of the cut are placed "ramps" (as part of th jig/tooling ) which govern the feed into & out of the member..After one pocket is done ,the blank L.E. is repositioned for the next . Regards John McKenzie .

John McKenzie · 22 April 2009, 02:29 AM

In place of the above ,you could have a special solid safty router cutter made for use on a router table if you have this. However 1.These cutters are VERY expensive & also the tungsten brazed in blades are never as sharp as H.S.S. Over all I would say the most practical by far (unless you have the machinery ) would be the "Ramp" method useing of course H.S.S. cutter tapered & with rounded nose to suit the int.l section. Hope this is of some help....J.M.