Nieuport research

brinesharks · 25 April 2009, 02:36 AM

OldHand - a picture is truly worth a thousand words! Thanks for going to the effort. It's what I had envisioned from your description but it's good to confirm it. Regarding safety - to paraphrase someone else's quote "A fool learns from his own mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others". I think this forum is a great way to share knowledge about the dangers of what we do.

Doug Bigler - the Das Nieuport Projekt is a source of great information. I have contacted the guys and they are quite encouraging. I think though that their advice only goes so far. What I have found is that if you are 'all hat and no cattle' people are polite and encouraging but don't go out of their way to help (especially if legal liability is involved). If you actually have a go and start into a project, you get an excellent response and a lot of help. So rather than bother too many people I hope to get a few parts made up and try things for myself. That being said, I hope to share my thoughts, questions and progress here to help others in their own journeys.

Joe Perkel · 25 April 2009, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brinesharks

"A fool learns from his own mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others". I think this forum is a great way to share knowledge about the dangers of what we do.

I think though that their advice only goes so far. What I have found is that if you are 'all hat and no cattle' people are polite and encouraging but don't go out of their way to help (especially if legal liability is involved). If you actually have a go and start into a project, you get an excellent response and a lot of help. .

Bryan,

So as not to hijack your thread, I have response for this very appropriate wisdom on my own thread.

brinesharks · 30 April 2009, 04:11 AM

Joe - feel free to hijack!

I'm slowly moving into my project. I'm off to buy some Ash tomorrow. The Rozendaal drawings specify Ash (Esche) for the capstrips on the upper and lower wing ribs.

I have a few questions:

1. Is American Ash comparable to European Ash?
2. Is Ash reasonably easy to bend (should this be steam or water/ammonia)?
3. Why would they have used ash rather than Spruce?

Any ideas are appreciated.

brinesharks · 30 April 2009, 05:29 AM

BTW - found this link:

Internet Archive: Details: Wood in aircraft construction

It's 'Wood in Aircraft Construction' from around 1936 by the US Forestry Department. Well worth a read!

Joe Perkel · 30 April 2009, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brinesharks

Joe - feel free to hijack!

I'm slowly moving into my project. I'm off to buy some Ash tomorrow. The Rozendaal drawings specify Ash (Esche) for the capstrips on the upper and lower wing ribs.

I have a few questions:

1. Is American Ash comparable to European Ash?
2. Is Ash reasonably easy to bend (should this be steam or water/ammonia)?
3. Why would they have used ash rather than Spruce?

Any ideas are appreciated.

Bryan,

Have to answer from memory as I am away from my references at the moment. From the Text, "Wood in Aircraft Construction" George Trayer 1930.

I can recall comparing the properties of spruce and ash. The specifics elude me at the moment but, I recall thinking that it made sense for the application with regard to strenth and elasticity properties for use as the main structural members in both the floats, and If I recall correctly, the fuselage longerons.

A quick peek at the main floats on my site, and you can see that the ash bends in two directions forward, (a complex bend). How you get there, I've not yet answered for myself. These members are tapered down to one inch square at the ends, I suspect for both weight and bending reasons.

The text is quite comprehensive and covers these issues along with a comparison of same species from different locations, (ie European -vs- american, etc).

I highly recommend that text.

30 April 2009, 09:47 AM

Have been enjoying this thread and will continue, as best I can. However, I find I must downsize (moving from house into MUCH smaller digs for family issues) and thought somone might be interested in my Bergen Hardesty Nieuport 17 and 24/27 scale drawings (4 sheets per type-8 sheets total). These are "blue line" prints 31.5"x 42" , at 1'=1" scale. They are are showing their age with some fading, wrinkles and dog ears, yet, still quite ledgible. These need a good home and I'm not looking to malke a killing. Would 50.00 (I'll cover rolled return and postage) be reasonable?

Doug Bigler · 30 April 2009, 11:11 AM

3. Why would they have used ash rather than Spruce?

Ash is stronger than spruce for a given cross section, and harder. I know Sopwith used spruce for capstrips and birch plywood for rib webs. I think Nieuport used solid poplar for webs so maybe the ash capstrips compensated for the absence of plywood there. Sopwith also went from using spruce in Pup spars to using ash for the Camel's spars, probably in response to Pup wing failures.

Joe Perkel · 30 April 2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Bigler

Sopwith also went from using spruce in Pup spars to using ash for the Camel's spars, probably in response to Pup wing failures.

Doug,

I would be very interested in reading documentation of the circumstances surrounding such PUP wing failures. The mechanics of this would be most informative. Could you please point me in the right direction?

brinesharks · 1 May 2009, 05:16 AM

Ok - so I said I was buying Ash...but the timber supplier had limited American Ash. They did however have a big pile of European Ash but underneath other timber. So I left a list with them and they are going to pull out some quarter sawn European Ash.

I did however, take home some Walnut (Nussbaum) today! Not quite what I was expecting but useful nonetheless. The Nieuport uses some Walnut to strengthen around the tail and some other areas.

They had lots of Spruce too, but I don't have anywhere to store spars at the moment. I won't need them for a while, so I'll pick it up down the track.

brinesharks · 1 May 2009, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Perkel

Bryan,

...I can recall comparing the properties of spruce and ash. The specifics elude me at the moment but, I recall thinking that it made sense for the application with regard to strenth and elasticity properties for use as the main structural members in both the floats, and If I recall correctly, the fuselage longerons.

A quick peek at the main floats on my site, and you can see that the ash bends in two directions forward, (a complex bend). How you get there, I've not yet answered for myself. These members are tapered down to one inch square at the ends, I suspect for both weight and bending reasons.

The text is quite comprehensive and covers these issues along with a comparison of same species from different locations, (ie European -vs- american, etc).

I highly recommend that text.

Thanks for the response. I've spent some time reading the text - gives me a lot more confidence to start my project.

I really recommend people read the section on steam bending. It's only about a page but very interesting. It recommends only hardwoods for steam bending and gives a maximum temp over which the timber permanently loses its strength.