WWI Replica Safety

mustang · 4 January 2009, 03:26 PM

I was working out of a nearby airfield when this accident occurred. I did not see it happen but later saw the burnt out wreckage in a hanger. As is usual with Tiger Moths there was very little left

I trained on Tigers and later flew a lot of hours on them crop dusting and instructing. Basically a pretty safe aircraft but it was vital to get the nose down promptly if power was lost and land straight ahead. At power off glide speeds balanced turns were critical. The quickest way to enter an incipient spin was to hold of bank in a gliding turn and feed in rudder. This appears to be what happened.

I am in no way being critical of the pilot. The extra drag of the person on the top mainplane and the additional weight well above the CG would have had a fairly significant effect on the handling qualities of this aircraft.

Mustang

j ferguson · 4 January 2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mustang

The quickest way to enter an incipient spin was to hold of bank in a gliding turn and feed in rudder. This appears to be what happened.
Mustang

Does the above mean "Feed in rudder but do not bank appropriately?"

What happened looked a bit like a skid.

mustang · 4 January 2009, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j ferguson

Does the above mean "Feed in rudder but do not bank appropriately?"

What happened looked a bit like a skid.

Thats exactly what it meant, Not a balanced turn, Skid ball, or the needle in this case, not centred. The aircraft yaws, skids, the wings on the outside of the turn gain more lift, the wings on the inside of the turn lose lift, the aircraft rolls, the nose drops and autorotation commences.

Mustang

Joe Perkel · 4 January 2009, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mustang

I was working out of a nearby airfield when this accident occurred.

Mustang,

As you are familiar with the field, can you tell us what was ahead of his flight path that made him decide to turn back? The later helicopter aerial video shows a rather vast open field, I suspect trees we dont see. It truly does look like a pilot friendly place otherwise.

I no longer fly out of Metropolitan South Florida, North Perry specifically (HWO), due to density, both traffic and population. It's a former WWII training satellite field.

I can't think of a more unfriendly engine out environment, and had gone as far as to reconnoiter the neighborhoods on foot, to spy the best plan of action, wires, poles, trees...etc.

Roadhog · 4 January 2009, 08:46 PM

Dear Mustang, My father was a pilot who was trained on the "old" Stearmans. He always said that when you take off and stall or develop any kind of mechanical problem the very last thing you should do is turn back towards the field and attempt a landing. Is this good advice? From everything I have read about early aircraft, I believe that it is.

Second, he stressed that you always perform the preflight inspection personally. He would not have trusted a co-pilot or even his own mother on this one.

Thanks for all of your clarifications regarding this sad post. VR, Scott Price, "Memento mori."

Brad · 5 January 2009, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Perkel

Sid,

Very ugly indeed!

He was no doubt, thinking about her up on the wing. Judging by the background, there was likely a tree line just ahead on his glide path had he done what's recommended. A poignant reminder about maintaining flying speed.

My primary instructor was an old school guy out in Texas, (one legged and one eyed),.... a tough little dude! (a D.O.D controller at NAS Kings by the way). His thing was always, no matter what happens, "Fly the damn plane!"

We had lot's of space out there with lot's of flat places to land, it was his plane, so he would pull the power back, mixture cut-off, pitch up to still the prop, then tell me to "Land the damn plane",...he was really something else!

That experience taught me the value of, and gave me confidence in pitching the nose down when you have to, even in close proximity to terra firma.

I've had about the same experiences as you with my instructors... flying a Citabria, this one has flaps... but... I've never touched that handle, it doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. And I've NEVER used power from the time I'm abeam the numbers except to correct for my own stupidity... or in a couple cases to "catch" it when it ballooned right at touchdown due to gusts so I didn't bang it on. I'm fortunate to have had instructors that teach energy managment. It irks me to no end to see some spam can driver fly a 2 mile final. (Especially if I'm behind them in the pattern... lol)

mustang · 5 January 2009, 01:14 PM

Joe Perkel and Roadhog

The field is not surrounded by trees but there are trees close to the boundary on one side. I don't know the direction of take off so I am unable to say whether they had any influence on the pilot's decision to turn.

This accident would have been thoroughly investigated by the relevant authority and I have tried to find the report on the internet, so far without sucess.

Not attempting to turn back after an engine failure on take off is fundamental to professional flight training. In my case I was taught from the beginning to land staight ahead, diverging a few degrees either left or right to avoid any major obstacle in the selected touch down area.

In the case of this accident, which occurred in the mid 90s, I suspect that there were a number of other factors involved, hence my search for the accident report. If I eventually locate it I will post the link here.

regards

Mustang

Roadhog · 5 January 2009, 03:17 PM

Dear Mustang, It sounds like you and Dad had the same flight instructor. Happy New Year. Scott "Memento mori."

Joe Perkel · 5 January 2009, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadhog

Dear Mustang, It sounds like you and Dad had the same flight instructor. Happy New Year. Scott "Memento mori."

Engine Failure on Take-off

Establish glide speed, wings level, mixture off, switch off, land straight ahead, is standard procedure. (Ejection if military, always was envious of that capability!) Everyone is taught this.

The problem becomes for people when faced with this situation, is that the self preservation instinct, is not to crash into what's ahead. It must be a truly mental anguish moment, but not one with time to mull over. This one has to be thought out in advance, and mentally reviewed on each and every flight.

j ferguson · 6 January 2009, 06:44 AM

I'm sure this will be obvious to anyone who has ever flown a replica or other early wire-braced, relatively low-powered plane. It seems to me in comparison to more modern planes with less drag, a replica with its greater drag is likely to slow down much more quickly if power is reduced or the nose pointed up. Which might suggest that if you fly over the numbers at say 1.3 times stall speed and cut the power, you may find yourself on the ground a lot sooner than you would expect with a modern plane. This, and the apparently higher than expected (to me, at least) reported stall speeds for these planes suggest that they be powered to flare, or with a steeper approach than you would ever employ in an "ordinary" GA plane.

Mind you, this is speculative on my part because I don't have any time in anything with a lot of drag and not a lot of power, or at least not worse than a J-3. I'm sure, though, that after a few flights, if you are adept at giving a plane what it wants, this wouldn't be a problem, just a difference.