Radiator

buck toenges · 7 October 2009, 07:34 AM

After talking To Jeff, it sounds like I need to make a radiator to supplement weight to my front end of the gipsy queen DVII. According to Willem in the Netherlands his radiator and water weight is about 88lbs. I am looking at getting a radiator to be about 110lbs. So I am looking for suggestions and/or builders of radiators for help.

Does anyone have an e-mail or number to Neil Good? I've lost it.

Thanks,
Buck

Joe Perkel · 7 October 2009, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buck toenges

. I am looking at getting a radiator to be about 110lbs. So I am looking for suggestions and/or builders of radiators for help.

Thanks,
Buck

Buck,

A slow day for me at work today, so If I may offer suggestions, since I find the subject of faux aircraft parts for WWI replicas particularly interesting. The DVII, lends itself quite nicely to your problem as per the image above. Here you can implement a faux feature and place your ballast at the same time, (a two birds, same stone scenario).

I would focus on external (visual authenticity), structural integrity / installation, and cubic volume of the unit for placement of appropriate ballast.
Water @ 8.35 lbs per gallon, is not particularly dense, and would require a vessel with a volume of 13 cubic feet, (a bit large for the application eh?). Lead on the other hand, weighs some 708lbs / cu ft, and where 110 lbs requires .155 cu /ft of volume, a much more convenient situation.

So, I would enjoy myself here and design a beautiful faux radiator, and make up the difference in material weight with a bit of lead in the lowest portion of the volume.

RobW · 7 October 2009, 08:38 AM

Just wondering... probably more work than it is worth... but, since you have to have one anyway... would it be possible to combine the radiator and the oil cooler? What I'm saying is build an oil cooler in the appropriate radiator shape... then it is not just a faux piece for appearance sake... it still serves some function.

Just wondering...

rob

ulpilot · 7 October 2009, 09:15 AM

I have heard that Neil Good doesn't want to produce anymore radiators. Lot's of work involved and the last price he gave someone was $20,000. Been thinking of seeing if he is interested in selling his fixtures and producing a couple. But don't think many folks want to part with that kind of money. If your interested we could talk.

Maxim08 · 7 October 2009, 09:52 AM

Buck,
Rob W has pointed out an appropriate startegy re moving weight forward.
Late last year we (the GWFM) started re assessing everything firewall forward on their Ranger powered D VII with a specific focus on weigh distribution. Most of what we are doing is based on startegies that I had laid out for my D VII project. I recognise that you are using a Gypsy Queen engine and the 2 aircraft I refer to are Ranger powered but all suffer from not having enough weight in the nose.
2 of the projects the GWFM are currently working on are 1: moving the oil cooler into the rad location and 2: shifting the battery into the chin area just aft of the nose case. For the GWFM we are part way through forming an alloy rad shell/cowling. The face of this will have hex screen laid in to simulate the 8mm hex in the 'real' radiator. The hex material was found on e-bay from one of the aftermarket grill manufacturers.
My original thoughts were to manufacture 1/2 of an authentic radiator to use it as both oil cooler and resevoir. The concern that I could not answer was how the rad, real or false, would impact on the air flow required for cooling the engine cylinders.
I conversed with Neil Good throught this forum several years ago regarding Fokker radiators. The tubing came to him pre-formed and of a sufficent quantity to make 3 or 4 rads. At that time he only had a small amount left, samples really, and was very definite in his lack of interest in doing another one.
The New Zealand people use this company: Home They quoted me 25,000 nz dollars 2 years ago.
The Ranger is about 250 lbs light compared to a Mercedes. Some quick math tells me that if the crankcases were cast iron, it would solve the balance problem!
BTW, any additional weight required will be lead poured into the engine bearers.
Regards,
John

Joe Perkel · 7 October 2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxim08

For the GWFM we are part way through forming an alloy rad shell/cowling. The face of this will have hex screen laid in to simulate the 8mm hex in the 'real' radiator.

BTW, any additional weight required will be lead poured into the engine bearers.
Regards,
John

An integrated cowl geometry is a much neater solution from both an airflow and complexity standpoint, and the bearers are a more appropriate placement of lead ballast if shifting of other items does not pan out.

An example of the benefits of multiple individuals brainstorming a solution.

Maxim08 · 7 October 2009, 12:09 PM

Joe,
Weight is the on-going bane of re-engined WW1 aircraft.
Current struggle with the GWFM's full size SE5a is an example.
This is quite accurate re dimensions and airfoil etc, but like many others, over built and heavy. The engine is a Ranger C5. A recent modification moved the engine forward 4" in the expectation that added weight could be decreased. While it is less, we are still looking at 100+ lbs of ballast up front. Tomorrow we will add the 'old' prop which weights about 25lbs more than the current. A quick experiment by leaning down on the nose with a scale under the tailwheel in flying attitude reduced the tail weight from nearly 200 lbs down to about 80.
I appreciate the comment re brainstorming, but I don't really believe that there are a lot of new ideas. Mostly a re-application of an existing one or the discovery of a lost technique. The ballast is a standard keel boat technique by pouring lead (something you can do with those old car batteries) into the keel.
Regards,
John

Von Writter · 7 October 2009, 02:16 PM

This is my Rad "Shell" for my DVII. It is built like an original except the core which has a deep core brass rad in it (from the wing of a spitfire)

Jeff Brooks · 7 October 2009, 02:33 PM

Troy,
Didn't I tell you ... "If you build it, they will come!"

Von Writter · 7 October 2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Brooks

Troy,
Didn't I tell you ... "If you build it, they will come!"

You did Jeff. I wish I could get this engine problem behind me and get on with some fun stuff for a change! I'm sick of spending money and time on it! Almost there but... 180 hp and 600lbs should be enough right? No then I had to see the engine the boys out in Newzeland have that is 217hp and then all satisfaction is dimmed... I have issues!