British aircraft seatbelts

[snj5]

Hello all

What did British aircraft, Sopwith scouts inparticular, use for seat belts/harness?
Does anyone use these for replica flying?

Many thanks!
rt

[bristol scout]

Originally Posted by snj5

Hello all

What did British aircraft, Sopwith scouts inparticular, use for seat belts/harness?
Does anyone use these for replica flying?

Many thanks!
rt

Hi, Snj5

A very broad lap strap in two parts. It comprised Webbing (like the 08 pattern British army webbing) and thick leather. I would argue against ANY rendition of 'Sutton Harness' type belts for anything British in W.W.1---with the exception of some--a few---H.D. Camels, very very late in war.

I don't believe safety standards today would countenance replicas flying with just a lap strap---but on that I am not positive.

Cheers,
Dave.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi Dave:
I have a Royal Aircraft Factory Drawing, pre 1 April 1918 that shows the installation for the S.E.5a.
Blue skies Dave,
Dan-San

[bristol scout]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Hi Dave:
I have a Royal Aircraft Factory Drawing, pre 1 April 1918 that shows the installation for the S.E.5a.
Blue skies Dave,
Dan-San

I bow to your far greater expertise Dan-San---but I have never seen a one in photograph so fitted.

I remember reading Willie Fry who flew SPAD's saying that they did not like nor use the French shoulder straps.

In fact I have not come across any references at the time to lead me to believe in anything but the lap-strap----lovely drawing of it by Harry Woodman in his exquisite little book

I still feel shoulder straps would be atypical on anything but late H.D. Camels----but, as I said up front----one would be very rash indeed to disagree with you, the more so when faced with documents!!!

Cheers Dan-San,

Dave.

[snj5]

Dave
Many thanks.
Only once dimly in a photo I could make out what looked a wide white lap belt, with a tongue and buckle fastening onto grommeted holes - it may have been a glimpse into the Murrin plane actually; Here is a similar interpretation off of the Foran Camel model showing similar shoulder straps.

Again, many thanks all!

Russ

[bristol scout]

Originally Posted by snj5

Dave
Many thanks.
Only once dimly in a photo I could make out what looked a wide white lap belt, with a tongue and buckle fastening onto grommeted holes - it may have been a glimpse into the Murrin plane actually; Here is a similar interpretation off of the Foran Camel model showing similar shoulder straps.

Again, many thanks all!

Russ

That's the one I would'nt be happy with--but Dan-San's knowledge may have to trump my 'gut' feeling

I am always reminded of the great (and missed) Carl Sagan's reply when asked for his 'gut feeling'

"I don't think with my guts" A great man indeed

Dave.

[snj5]

I found what I had seen before - here is a construction view of the Murrin Camel showing his interpretation of the belts.

<edit add>
For new guys like me, here is a reference photo of a Sutton Harness:
http://www.kaisersbunker.com/rfc/rfc10.htm

[bristol scout]

Originally Posted by snj5

I found what I had seen before - here is a construction view of the Murrin Camel showing his interpretation of the belts.
Do you believe this to be accurate?

Layout yes---material no---overall appearence not bad (lovely Camel)

For my pennies that is the basic layout of all British made aeroplanes--as I say--right up to very late in war--and even then Sutton Harness types on HD --or I would have to add training Squadrons---only--and probably only Camels in both those 'disciplines' even then.

BUT---I'm running on gut----- and observation of nothing else----in practice!!!

Dave.EDIT---never shy of an argument---but I would not 'argue' this one with the real experts here Snj5

[John McKenzie]

Hi to all . Most of the wide "Lap straps ", ( Many made by British and Colonial I believe ) , ended with the attachment of an appx 1 " dia "whitish" hemp rope spliced and looped around the longeron/vertical/cross-member joint , or thru' a steel plate fitting .( At least on RA Factory types ).
Dave and Dan San ,
Just definately "Sitting on the fence here" .......Although there are undoubtedly RAF drawings of an idea ( Sutton harness in this case ), this then would be made at the RAF workshops , and subsequently tested there. It then had to be " Passed" ( or not ) by the RFC Martlesham Heath people ,then if acceptable , as a recomendation to higher RFC HQ for production/incorporation into existing design ...Then the authorization passed for contracts to supply from manufacturers and /or down to Aircraft Parks for processing etc.
So....Just because there's adrawing , .....Doesn't automaticaly mean it went into production ....The proof will always be in the Documents of purchase , Schedules , Photos , 1st hand contempory accounts etc.etc. ( There were literaly hundreds of drawn ideas which fell by the wayside , not only RAF designs but others ..Parachutes for example ...There must have been some captured ones available for inspection )...
Regards to all John.

[bristol scout]

Hi John, guys,
good point John,

And then I find this---but it stay's within my parameters of very late and Camels--

"I wore this harness over my flying coat and then my SHOULDER STRAPS and belt over all in a Camel.........." written by R.M. Charley, Captain R.A.F.-----on testing Guardian Angel parachute. in 'Sopwith Camel-King of Air Combat' must of read it a hundred times...!

Bugger me------but I still say that would be atypical for anything other than late late---home establishment.

Phew! yer pays yer money.....
Dave.