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1998 Closed threads from 1998 (read only)

 
 
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Old 1 January 1999, 11:26 PM   #31
Axel Schudak
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The numbers come from "Die deutschen Militaerflugzeuge 1910-1918", Kroeschel & Stuetzer, Wilhelmshaven 1977.
The best book I have yet seen about the German types. They usually give exact numbers for "delivered" planes (nor ordered, build, or flown), but usually those types still in production at the end of the war have only estimations. These are ca. 800 for the DVII and ca. 200 for the DVIIa
These numbers go conform with Kenneth Munsons "Fighters 1914-1919", which states 760 in service in September 18 (which would fit into the 1000 total). He states that 840 total where delivered by Fokker, while 785 where ordered by Albatros and 975 where ordered by OAW. The difference may be between ordered and delivered planes. Most orderes (with some few exceptions) where cancelled immediately in November. Since Germany had less than 2000 servicable frontline planes in November, I think it is safe to assume that only roughly 1000 DVII got to the front. These should be the numbers used for the calculation.

best regards

Axel
 
Old 2 January 1999, 01:13 PM   #32
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Shooter et al: actually the Bundesluftwaffe still flies F-4Fs (NOT to be confused with F4F Wildcats) and will have them awhile longer. The USAF took a long time to realize that the way to exploit the Phantom was its excellent vertical performance. When F-8 Crusader pilots were transferred (kicking and screaming, with a door knob in each hand and heel marks on the deck) to the Phantom community, things improved considerably. Some former F-8 guys actually came to prefer the F-4 with the extra eyes behind the pilot. The best comparison of USN/USAF use is found in "On Yankee Station" (by my best friend and me) and "Clashes" by a former USAF driver. In '72 the navy sent four F-8s to Thailand to teach the blue-suiters ACM, while in combat! "Pirate" still regrets that he didn't ignore orders that kept him out of NVN: "I'd have been an ace fershure and they'd probably have court martialed me but it woulda been worth it."
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Old 2 January 1999, 09:46 PM   #33
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I could be wrong, but I think that one of the near aces, Robin Olds with 4 kills also flew the F4 Phantom, didn't he???

It just seems to me that there were likely more than a few MiGs that went down in front of USAF and USN Phantoms.

AND from my reading, I gathered that the Israeli pilots just plain loved the F4 Phantom. Could I be wrong?

VBR,

Al Lowe
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Old 3 January 1999, 04:26 AM   #34
Shooter
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Al:

I am sure that you are correct that more MiG's were bagged by Phantom drivers than any other a/c in the VN War. There were a lot more F-4's in the sky than F-8's, and the Crusaders were withdrawn from Naval Aviation some time before the hostilities ended there.

However, the victory-to-sortie ratio of the F-8 was way beyond that of the F-4, and the Naval Aviators who drove the F-8 swore by it as the "MiG Master."

Barrett raises a very sound point when he mentions the advantage of having an extra set of eyes in the Phantom being a distinct advantage. The presence of the "heavy-breathers" in the back-seats of the F-4's doubled the chances of picking up a bad-guy at six o'clock (since most downed fliers never see the dude who bagged them, the edge a back-seater gives you is obvious).

I don't know about the IAF's affection of the F-4, but considering that they had nothing which would compare with Phantoms when they drew them, I suppose that it would not be surprising if they did adore them.

Don't get me wrong, Al...the F-4 wasn't all bad. With clean wings and AB, it was VERY fast for its time. Having two engines when most of its contemporaries had only one, it was reliable. But it was large (ergo easy to see at a long distance) and bulky. It manuevered with the grace of a pregnant hippo, and lacked internal cannon in most models (the F-8, for example, had four internal 20mm cannon). These were not good attributes for a fighter a/c.

r/s

Bill
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Old 3 January 1999, 06:22 AM   #35
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Yes, Robin flew F-4Cs in 1966-67. I believe he was one of the early USAF exponents of vertical maneuvering.
The Israelis mainly wanted the F-4 as a strike aircraft. Their initial cadre of pilots and "navigators" came to NAS Miramar in about 1970 and were determined to make the brute into a dogfighter, and they worked very hard at it. However, the sweetheart of the IAF was the Mirage, and most Israeli aces made all or most of their records on that delta-wing classic. For more info, see Peter Mersky's book from Specialty Press.
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