The Aerodrome Home Page
Aces of WWI
Aircraft of WWI
Books and Film
The Aerodrome Forum
Links to Other Sites
Medals and Decorations
Search The Aerodrome
Today in History

The Aerodrome Forum

Go Back   The Aerodrome Forum > Archives > 1998

1998 Closed threads from 1998 (read only)

Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 1 January 1999, 11:26 PM   #31
Axel Schudak
Posts: n/a

The numbers come from "Die deutschen Militaerflugzeuge 1910-1918", Kroeschel & Stuetzer, Wilhelmshaven 1977.
The best book I have yet seen about the German types. They usually give exact numbers for "delivered" planes (nor ordered, build, or flown), but usually those types still in production at the end of the war have only estimations. These are ca. 800 for the DVII and ca. 200 for the DVIIa
These numbers go conform with Kenneth Munsons "Fighters 1914-1919", which states 760 in service in September 18 (which would fit into the 1000 total). He states that 840 total where delivered by Fokker, while 785 where ordered by Albatros and 975 where ordered by OAW. The difference may be between ordered and delivered planes. Most orderes (with some few exceptions) where cancelled immediately in November. Since Germany had less than 2000 servicable frontline planes in November, I think it is safe to assume that only roughly 1000 DVII got to the front. These should be the numbers used for the calculation.

best regards

Old 2 January 1999, 01:13 PM   #32
Forum Ace of Aces
Barrett's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: The American West
Posts: 5,676

Shooter et al: actually the Bundesluftwaffe still flies F-4Fs (NOT to be confused with F4F Wildcats) and will have them awhile longer. The USAF took a long time to realize that the way to exploit the Phantom was its excellent vertical performance. When F-8 Crusader pilots were transferred (kicking and screaming, with a door knob in each hand and heel marks on the deck) to the Phantom community, things improved considerably. Some former F-8 guys actually came to prefer the F-4 with the extra eyes behind the pilot. The best comparison of USN/USAF use is found in "On Yankee Station" (by my best friend and me) and "Clashes" by a former USAF driver. In '72 the navy sent four F-8s to Thailand to teach the blue-suiters ACM, while in combat! "Pirate" still regrets that he didn't ignore orders that kept him out of NVN: "I'd have been an ace fershure and they'd probably have court martialed me but it woulda been worth it."
You will not rise to the occasion: You will default to your level of training.
Barrett is offline  
Old 2 January 1999, 09:46 PM   #33
Rest in Peace
Billy_Bishop's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Mason, MI USA
Posts: 2,789

I could be wrong, but I think that one of the near aces, Robin Olds with 4 kills also flew the F4 Phantom, didn't he???

It just seems to me that there were likely more than a few MiGs that went down in front of USAF and USN Phantoms.

AND from my reading, I gathered that the Israeli pilots just plain loved the F4 Phantom. Could I be wrong?


Al Lowe
Al Lowe
The Billy Bishop Website
Billy_Bishop is offline  
Old 3 January 1999, 04:26 AM   #34
Senior Gunfighter
Shooter's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Jacksonville, NC


I am sure that you are correct that more MiG's were bagged by Phantom drivers than any other a/c in the VN War. There were a lot more F-4's in the sky than F-8's, and the Crusaders were withdrawn from Naval Aviation some time before the hostilities ended there.

However, the victory-to-sortie ratio of the F-8 was way beyond that of the F-4, and the Naval Aviators who drove the F-8 swore by it as the "MiG Master."

Barrett raises a very sound point when he mentions the advantage of having an extra set of eyes in the Phantom being a distinct advantage. The presence of the "heavy-breathers" in the back-seats of the F-4's doubled the chances of picking up a bad-guy at six o'clock (since most downed fliers never see the dude who bagged them, the edge a back-seater gives you is obvious).

I don't know about the IAF's affection of the F-4, but considering that they had nothing which would compare with Phantoms when they drew them, I suppose that it would not be surprising if they did adore them.

Don't get me wrong, Al...the F-4 wasn't all bad. With clean wings and AB, it was VERY fast for its time. Having two engines when most of its contemporaries had only one, it was reliable. But it was large (ergo easy to see at a long distance) and bulky. It manuevered with the grace of a pregnant hippo, and lacked internal cannon in most models (the F-8, for example, had four internal 20mm cannon). These were not good attributes for a fighter a/c.


In God we trust, everyone else keep your hands where I can see them!
Only the hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
There is no second-place award for a gunfight. Never bring a knife.
Shooter is offline  
Old 3 January 1999, 06:22 AM   #35
Forum Ace of Aces
Barrett's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: The American West
Posts: 5,676

Yes, Robin flew F-4Cs in 1966-67. I believe he was one of the early USAF exponents of vertical maneuvering.
The Israelis mainly wanted the F-4 as a strike aircraft. Their initial cadre of pilots and "navigators" came to NAS Miramar in about 1970 and were determined to make the brute into a dogfighter, and they worked very hard at it. However, the sweetheart of the IAF was the Mirage, and most Israeli aces made all or most of their records on that delta-wing classic. For more info, see Peter Mersky's book from Specialty Press.
You will not rise to the occasion: You will default to your level of training.
Barrett is offline  


most, quotsuccessfulquot, german, fighter

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Photos and descriptions of "insides of German hangars"... VonReichel Other WWI Aviation 8 14 May 2005 09:23 PM
Dan-San's "German Army Air Force Camouflage Systems" EricGoedkoop Camouflage, Colors and Markings 1 7 March 2005 03:35 PM
Profile of SE5a "C'5396" - "Grid" Caldwell "Junior" Aircraft 5 28 January 2005 01:15 PM
Ever looked inside the German "Guardian"? AchimEngels Aircraft 26 12 July 2002 09:22 PM
German Battle Cruiser "Goeben" stevedrew 2000 9 25 August 2000 04:40 PM

As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:36 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1997 - 2023 The Aerodrome