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2001 Closed threads from 2001 (read only)

 
 
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Old 3 December 2001, 07:30 AM   #11
AchimEngels
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Dear Joe,

I have seen such metal rings, too, several times, but they have been used with Fokker D.VII´s to close or open the radiator shutters to receive more or less cooling.

Here is a picture of what I mean with it.





These two are of the odd Munich Fokker D.VII.



The last one is of Fokker D.VII 4635/18.

I have another picture somewhere in my archive where you can clearly see the cable attached to the ring running to the radiator shutters, but can not locate it at present since it not yet is registered with my archive listings.

If Mr. Dr.Dr. Steinle sais this is the emergency throttle device, then he is wrong on this one.

Achim *
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Old 3 December 2001, 01:03 PM   #12
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Achim; I suppose you may be right. I trust all the detailed research you have done. It made sense to me that pulling the ring would pull the carburetor slide closed in an emergency siutation. What I don't understand, is how it could be used to BOTH open AND close radiator shutters, unless they are heavily spring loaded? And, if so, then what would keep them open or closed after pulling the ring? You can only pull on this ring and there is nothing to set it at a certain level. And you certainly could not push it, as you cannot push a long length of soft, loose cable. I suppose it is possible you might be able to open the radiator shutters a little by pulling, but how would you keep it at anything but maximum , once you have pulled? And I do not wish to injure Dr. Steinle's fine reputation with a memory that MAY be incorrect after some ten years since (I THOUGHT I REMEMBERED)we agreed that it was an emergency throttle shut-off. Maybe I misunderstood...
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Old 3 December 2001, 06:20 PM   #13
AchimEngels
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Dear Joe,

if you take a close look at the color photographs of the Munich Fokker D.VII above, you will note three small holes in the part that is is just right in front of the ring. You can also see a small pin at the mounting bracket. The shutter on this aircraft was adjusted by pulling the ring and fixing it in one of these three locations. The shutter itself was a small aluminum Plate that was indeed sprung loaded. You can see these in the british report sketches. I have attached one for you. You can also see this in the other photograph I referred to above, which I do not be able to locate at present.



The Ministry of Munitions Report by the Technical Department - Aircraft Production No. I.C. 640 of September 1918 states the following observation on captured 368/18:

"The single shutter, as will be seen on reference Figure 16 (see above) is normally held in open position by a spring, but can be closed at will by pulling a small cable. This shutter even when completely closed only puts out of action a small portion (roughly about one third) of the cooling surface."

There was no need to heavily springload these small shutter plates.


Just take a look at this one of an Albatros-built Fokker D.VII.



If you take a close look you can see the holes for the fixing here, too.

Later Swiss-used Fokker D.VII (Post war) did even use two of these shutter, one left the other right. You can see this in a small booklet called "Standardisierung" (standardization) of Fokker D.VII´s to be used with the Swiss Fliegertruppe. This may well explain why there are two of these on the Munich Fokker D.VII. It most probably was one of those D.VII´s flown with the Swiss Fliegertruppe. It was not a war standard D.VII.



I am taking the liberty of enclosing your picture here again.

As you can see ther is no such part with holes in it in front of the ring. Therefore I doubt that it was used with a Fokker aircraft for that purpose. Although I must admit that I do not have any photo of a Fokker-built D.VII showing this detail. It might well be that Fokker used a different methode to lock this cable.

Perhaps Dave Watts who is for sure watching this discussion might have the answer. Dave are you listening?

Your´s
Achim

PS. I understand your meaning of your memory of the explaination about Prof.Dr.Dr. Holger Steinles notes.
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Old 4 December 2001, 04:18 AM   #14
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Achim; Thank you for the clear and detailed explanation.
I thought that if the shutters were spring loaded and there were some hooks or pins near the ring position, so you could pull it back and hook it on at certain positions. to hold it there. that would make sense. You have confirmed that. Although MY ring does not have the piece in front with several holes to adjust length at the pin position, you may note that the ring , itself, is fastened to the cable by a snap and can be taken off there or added there with a quick snap of the fastener. It is not soldered or permanent. I suppose you could ALSO add the piece that is shown in your color photos, between the snap and the ring, just as easily. But, as you say, you only note these in Post-WWI Fokker aircraft. As far as we could determine, all of these (395,000) WWI German and Austro-Hungarian aircraft pieces were wartime items and did not note any that were postwar. Many of the instruments still had signed inspection and calibration tags with 1917 and 1918 dates on them. I, too, would be interested in hearing what Dave has to say on the matter. He bought many of *these parts from me, as much as ten years ago. (One memorable time, we were picking out WWI German aircraft parts from six foot high wooden crates, at my warehouse at 2:30 in the morning, and having a fun time) Thank you for taking the time to find photos to clearly illustrate and explain some of these uses *and possibilities. Your research is amazing.
Years ago, I used to be able to contact Piet Wey at Fokker and he could confirm which specific parts were used by Fokker. I do not know where he is now. since end of Fokker. I provided him with some parts for their Fokker "Spin" project,and he confirmed they were original items used by *Fokker and was delighted to get them. I feel *that you are the leading source of Fokker parts information, these days.
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Old 4 December 2001, 07:23 AM   #15
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Dear Joe,

Thanks a lot for these kind words, but I would not go that far to paint me with that brush.

There are many out there who know quite a lot and have done an amazing amount of research.

My dream just is to join forces and to find out more.

Your´s
Achim
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Old 4 December 2001, 11:47 AM   #16
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Hi all,

Just a quick note as I'm busy as hell selling Christmas trees right now.

The photo Achim posted showing the stripped Alb. built D.VII is of a war time aircraft. I have not seen definitive information on a Fokker built Fokker D.VII, although the information from the Swiss post war Fokker licensed built machines indicates that Fokker used the same as the Albatros type.

My understanding is much as Achim's. The pull ring has a barrel tang with holes in it that you hooked onto a catch post. The shutter was spring loaded to return to the open position and the pull wire would pull it closed towards the shut position. Therefore there would always be tension on the cable, and if the pilot let it hang off of the catch post, the shutter would be left in the full "open" position.

Hope this makes sense.

Best,
Dave

P.S. Best wishes to you Joe, I have found memories of that night. It was your father's birthday.
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Old 5 December 2001, 05:26 PM   #17
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Hey!

I have more definitive information on the radiator shutter!

I was digging thru a bunch of photos I copied while at Dallas a couple of years ago from the Ferko collection. It's crazy, there was a photo of a close-up of the back of the radiator shutter from a derelict D.VII. You can tell the airframe, (with the motor still installed), is lying on its belly. It may have been "slightly crashed". Anyhow, the photo was so good, I could makeout the motor number. It is 41273. Just now I looked through my Fokker Armee acceptance sheets and there it was, Fokker D.VII 391/18. I still was skeptical about the motor in the D.VII photo being a "re-install" in a later built D.VII, BUT I believe this is 391/18 because the exhaust pipe, (clearly visible in the photo), is the type that exits down at the side of the motor, NOT the high saxophone type.

With all this said, I conclude that the photo is of a Fokker built D.VII (391/18) and is typical of Fokker built D.VIIs.

The shutter is on the right rear of the radiator. In the photo you can clearly see the shutter has a triangular brace/control arm riveted on the back about half way down. It is doubled in thickness and has three lightening holes. On the inner side of the control arm is a spring that hooks to the middle of the side of the control arm and the other end hooks to a bracket on the first right-hand main stud of the Nr. 1 cylinder of the motor. There appears to be four holes to select from to hook the spring into of the shutter control arm. The inner side of the contol arm extends at a 90 degree angle from the shutter and is at the shutter axis.

So, on this arm is the spring and further out from the spring is the attachment of the shutter control cable. As I stated, the shutter wants to hinge open from the spring tension, but the braided wire cable, (when under tension), prevents it from opening.

I hope this explaination makes sense. For certain it answers the question of the Fokker built D.VII shutter.

Since this thread was on the Oberursel carb, I'm going to start a new thread and repost this shutter stuff so people don't miss it.

Best,
Dave W.
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Old 6 December 2001, 12:09 AM   #18
AchimEngels
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Dave,

It would be nice if you could post the photograph you mention here. You can also send it to me that I can host it on my server and post it for you.

Here is the sketch shown in the Swiss standardization booklet on their service Fokker D.VII´s showing how they did it.





Abstand vom Blechrand = distance to sheet surface

Die Betätigung der Kühlerabdeckung hat vermittels Zugring nach Skizze zu erfolgen = activision of the radiator shutters have to carried out by means of a pulling ring according to the sketch.

Fl.Bl. (Fluss-Blech) = mild steel sheet

Gabelspannschloss = forked turnbuckle

Kabel = cable

Kupferöse = copper eyelet

Kupferöse einpressen = copper eyelet pressed in

Lappen zum Kabel angeschweißt = bracket for cable attached by welding

Normalschelle = standard clamp

Spritzblech = "firewall"

Schnitt = Cut

Verschalungsblech = sheet metal covering


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