The Aerodrome Home Page
Aces of WWI
Aircraft of WWI
Books and Film
The Aerodrome Forum
Help
Links to Other Sites
Medals and Decorations
Search The Aerodrome
Today in History


The Aerodrome Forum


Go Back   The Aerodrome Forum > Archives > 2001

2001 Closed threads from 2001 (read only)

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 26 November 2001, 05:04 AM   #1
AchimEngels
Forum Ace
 
AchimEngels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Schorndorf - Germany
Posts: 2,533

 


Hello Friends,

I would like to know on what documents or surviving pieces of fabric the statements are based that the Fokker streaky finish did contain any kind of olive brown applied to the fabric.

Above should appear a photograph of my idea how it was done.

The fabric was doped clear, then the underside color was painted on it the same way as at the end the olive green was applied on top of it to generate a kind of three color smeary camouflage scheme that consists of the linen color shining through the grayish blue or turquoise which is also shining through the olive green applied on top of it.

Doing it that way I do not see a reason why anybody should apply any kind of brown to get a well serving camouflage scheme created in a very easy way.

Achim
__________________
My worksop is closed to public orders.

I may just sit down and write another book. This time on the whole story ...
AchimEngels is offline  
Sponsored Links
Old 26 November 2001, 06:19 AM   #2
GuyCanuck
Guest
 
Posts: n/a

Thats a good question - I would be interested in any reply to it. I asked this question before on this forum and the answer was that it was an "olive green on the brown end of it".
Does such a colour exist? I have yet to see an olive green
with brown in it. I know that Fokker DR1 and some D-V11 were finished in streaky olive green, but where did the
description "dark olive brown" come from? Was it a factory finish by Fokker and if so how was it obtained? I suspect that fading and weathering simply turned the olive green to a brownish colour.
This is just like the old debate of R.F.C. PC-10 Dark Green.
Was the colour green or brown? Actually it was both.
Factory fresh the colour was green, but after fading and tweathering, it turned to a brownish khaki-green.
Could it be that fading and weathering turned the streaky
olive green on the Fokkers to a brownish olive green?
Anyone care to comment?
 
Old 26 November 2001, 06:48 AM   #3
Volker_Nemsch
Forum Ace of Aces
 
Volker_Nemsch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,159

 
Hallo Achim!

Vielleicht könntest Du einfach den Teil einer RAL-Farbentabelle einscannen der für die Fokker-Farbgebung in Frage kommt (auch die Flügelunterseiten?). Bevor eine Diskussionn über das Farb-/Tarnschema entbrennt müßte Einigkeit über den genauen Farbton herschen. Vielleicht kann man auf diesem Weg die Sache endgültig klären (das betrifft auch die Farbe PC 10, die anscheinend chamäleonähnliche Eigenschaften besitzt).

Ach ja, ich konnte Deine Mail nicht öffnen. Versuchst Du es noch einmal oder schreibst es ins AERODROME?

Nur so eine unausgegorene Idee ...

__________________
Best regards from Germany
Volker Nemsch



"My words came out fine. The problem is that they were incorrectly processed by your brain."
(???)

"Much to learn, you still have."
(Yoda)

"I never said all that shit!"
(Confucius)
Volker_Nemsch is online now  
Old 26 November 2001, 07:48 AM   #4
AchimEngels
Forum Ace
 
AchimEngels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Schorndorf - Germany
Posts: 2,533

 
Volker,

which massage did you not have been able to open?

I did not send you one, but a virus did. It is called "BadTransII", in general harmless, but posting itself around using the E-mail addresses found in the address book of the infected system.

I have killed it.

Well, it is not the point to pin here the exact color by RAL or Methuen code down. Just a general agreement would be nice.

Just like Guy Cannuck pointed out, age is a vital component when looking at actual fabric samples. I do not think that we can go and take a look at any old piece and find out which color it was back then. At least not if we are no experts with the fading of colors over decates.

All I wanted to know is where the idea of the brown comes from. Is it from old pieces examined todays?

When I study old photographs of Fokker aircraft I can not deny that I get the impression that there are three colors visible. At least it appears to be some three shades laying above each other.

Here is another one of an D.IV that might be of interest for closer examination.


There are better ones than this, but I think this will do to show what I mean.

To determine exact color schemes, one would have to go back in time, take a color plate with him and compare the colors used then with our color plates of today, then return and tell us the result.

But even in this case we would only know what the color of exactly that cup of paint was, since they most certainly mixed it new all the time and there have been for sure variations, too.

All I am interest in is a basic agreement if it was a three color scheme as shown on top of this threat or if it just was a brown color painted above the brownish colored natural linen, which I do absolutely doubt.

I even feel that the turquoise quoted to have been used for the underside never was a turquoise. I think this was just a light bluish grey and that the painters did not wait until the streaky applied light blue grey on the top surfaces was dry before hey applied the olive green resulting in that turquoise shade seen on some locations on the first picture of this thread.

I know I run against almost everything shown in the Windsock Datafile color plates and what Dan-San told and did, but this is my impression.

I see no reason for any brown color in this scheme.
When I did my first reconstruction Triplane and painted it that way I most impressed with the camouflage result that was achieved once the aircraft was standing alone on a green grass floor and was viewed from a distance. Especially when it was early in the year and the grass still had that light brown/green faded shade.

Anyway, does anybody out there has any proof of brown being used?

Take care!
Achim
__________________
My worksop is closed to public orders.

I may just sit down and write another book. This time on the whole story ...
AchimEngels is offline  
Old 26 November 2001, 10:05 AM   #5
AchimEngels
Forum Ace
 
AchimEngels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Schorndorf - Germany
Posts: 2,533

 
Allright folks, it is me again,

Just one more thing to think about.

The first image is showing what I was talking about. It does not appear to me that these different shades are simply can be explained by the fading out of one color tone.

This is a picture of 160/17, a well known one by the way.



The other two images are of one and the same photgraph of my first triplane repro.

On the first you can clearly see how I think the underside color was also aplied in the streaky way on top of the natural colored linen with the olive green in turn applied on top of it.





The other photograph shows the same thing with the colors omited. And jet the different shedes are visible just like seen above in the photograph of 160/17.

I wounder if this is te correct way or not.

I would very much like to have Dan-San joining this debate, since he for sure has final proof by documents or other things.

I am looking forward to your comments.

Achim
__________________
My worksop is closed to public orders.

I may just sit down and write another book. This time on the whole story ...
AchimEngels is offline  
Old 26 November 2001, 10:29 AM   #6
Dan_San_Abbott
Rest in Peace
 
Dan_San_Abbott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Ceres, California
Posts: 9,118

 

My Gallery
Achim:
First of all it is not olive green! About 20 years ago or so Paul S. Leaman codified the fabric samples held in the Imperial War Museum from Fok. DR.I 144/17. He used the Methuen Handbook of Colour for his color reference. I have copies of his study, 2 sheets. The colors are:
Methuen Ref. Color
4F5/6 olive brown solid areas.
4F8 olive brown " "
3D8 olive green thin areas.
25C5 greyish green under sides.
The fabric was clear doped and given one coat of camouflage paint brushed on. A top coat of varnish was painted on all the fabric surfaces to water proof the fabric. The varnish had a yellow cast which cause a shift in the sky blue to a turquoise and green the lighter camouflage areas.
Blauer Himmeln
Dan-San
Dan_San_Abbott is offline  
Old 26 November 2001, 10:45 AM   #7
AchimEngels
Forum Ace
 
AchimEngels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Schorndorf - Germany
Posts: 2,533

 
Thanks Dan-San,

I will go and ask Paul for a copy of his report.

Achim

P.S. I still do not see a logic reason why anybody should use a brown here, since the fabric itself is of a light brown color.

I would love to inspect those fabric pieces on my own. Who do I have to contact for that purpose?
__________________
My worksop is closed to public orders.

I may just sit down and write another book. This time on the whole story ...
AchimEngels is offline  
Old 26 November 2001, 02:39 PM   #8
Dave_Watts
Forum Ace
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Indy, Home of the 500 race
Posts: 880

 
Hi Achim and others,

Very good thread. I'm sure it has been discussed before, but I can't recall in what publication, and if it was definitive in its conclusions.

Achim, is it possible for you to post that photo I sent you some time ago with the Fokker werkers painting the Dr.I wings at Schwerin? I'm all thumbs when it comes to posting photos.

I thought this photo was very good for explaining some things.

One point that is evident, is on the wings hanging up in the background. You can see the Patee cross has been applied to a white background underneath the bottom wing, but the interesting thing is the rest of the wing is in natural undoped clear linen. You will note that this undoped area is lighter in color than the cross field. I contend this shows that the cross field is not painted white, but simply clear doped linen (CDL), and therefore saving on paint and weight. There is a photo in Imrie's Dr.I book showing a Dr.I in the sunlight, and you can see the shadows of the ribs showing the bottom of the wing in the cross fields quite clearly. This supports the idea that there is no paint or pigment blocking the sunlight from coming through.

Another point of interest in this photo are the paint cans and the size of the paintbrush being utilized by the old fellow who is painting the wings. Look carefully at these and see if it tells you anything.

Lastly, not to critizise, but your first Dr.I paint job looks okay, but I believe the original paint job, was done with brushes with less paint, or paint that didn't soak into the fabric very well. Note on your photo of Dr.I 160/17 that the paint clearly shows the brush marks, and takes heavy application to completely cover the white fabric. Like I stated, the paint doesn't soak into the fabric. This is sometimes evidenced by the fact that you will sometimes see an aircraft late in its service life and small areas around the cockpit have flaked off revealing the underlying white fabric, showing that it never really "soaked" in.

Food for thought!

Best wishes,
Dave W.
Dave_Watts is offline  
Old 26 November 2001, 04:11 PM   #9
EdStevens
Scout Pilot
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 344

The following is according to Kenneth Munson's 1968 Pocket Encyclopaedia of World Aircraft (Fighters 1914-19). Unfortunately, he does not reference his source:

An interesting variation on German fabric finishes is the 'streaky' effect produced on some aircraft circa 1917...these aircraft came at a time when Germany was making every effort to use only cellulose for shrink-dope purposes and was evolving schemes to use dyes and other painted forms for its camouflage and markings. (The greatest shortage, incidentally, was of good red-pigmented materials, and explains why the use of red at this time was such a mark of the 'ace'. Only pilots of particular eminence could command the priority for materials in such short supply.) Over the yellowish (i.e. unbleached) linen Fokker tried applying a dark olive varnish, very sparingly, which gave a 'brushed-out' effect. This was then coated with a dark linseed-oil varnish, which had the effect of transforming the dark olive to a brownish shade of green and the yellowish fabric that showed through to a more orange shade.
EdStevens is offline  
Old 26 November 2001, 07:35 PM   #10
Dan_San_Abbott
Rest in Peace
 
Dan_San_Abbott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Ceres, California
Posts: 9,118

 

My Gallery
Achim:
You are hung up on the word 'brown'. It is not brown like leather or tobacco brown. Go to the grocery and look at very dark olives, they are not green, look at the color. The Methuen colour people have defind the color as olive-brown. Looking at page 3 of the Metheun Book, 3F8 is dark olive, page 4, 4F8 is dark olive brown, page 5 is raw umber, a very dark brown.
The dark olive-brown dope was thinned to a wash and applied with 80 to 100mm wide brushes in one continuous stroke. IT WAS NOT APPLIED OVER THE SKY BLUE BOTTOM COLOR! It was applied in ONE COAT over the clear doped linen fabric. The dark streaks are where the brush had a full load, and each succeeding brush stoke the covering of the thinned dope got lighter.
CROSS FIELDS. After the camouflage finish was applied, using matte black dope, the crosses were painted on the clear doped linen fabric on the upper wing top surface, the lower wing under surface, both sides of the fuselage and the rudder. After the crosses had dried, the cross fields were painted with flat white oil based paint on the top wing , fuselage and rudder crosses. The lower wing crosses were left as is, clear doped.
One coat coat of sky blue dope was applied to the under suface of the wings , axle wing, fuselage, and tailplane. The sky blue dope overlapped to the bottom side of the fuselage 20mm and to the top surface of the tailplane, forming a border 20mm wide.
After all the painting had dried, the fabric surfaces were given one waterproofing coat of copal varnish which had a yellowish cast, this causes a yellow shift, changing the sky blue to a turquoise.
This is all supported with Fabric Samples from Ltn. Stapenhorst's Fok. DR.I 144/17 held in the Imperial War Museum. These are substantiated facts, not my opinion.
If fabric samples are kept out of light, being stored in binders, drawers,etc the effect of lght aging is minimal. A few years ago I examined a piece of printed fabric from a Rol. D.VIa and it was as supple the day it was clear doped. I was able to bend around a1/2" mandrel without cracking the dope. So don't be concerned about ageing and color changes. That is generally an excuse for some defect. If the waterproofing varnish coat is aged it will become flakey. I have a piece of fuselage fabric from Fok. D.VII(OAW)4404/18, the dope is only one coat and the varnish is badly flakeing in places on it. It is neat, it has a patched bullet hole near the cross.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
Dan_San_Abbott is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Tags
fokker, streaky, factory, finish


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fokker Streaky Olive Brown Trackpad Camouflage, Colors and Markings 5 8 July 2006 08:16 PM
Fokker Streaky Green Trackpad Models 13 9 June 2006 11:41 PM
Factory finish on Fokker built D.VIIs landing gear airfoils? CWatson Camouflage, Colors and Markings 6 8 May 2006 07:54 AM
Streaky finish Fokker DVII willycoppens Aircraft 11 23 March 2004 07:34 PM
streaked factory finish BlackSeptember Models 7 4 June 2003 07:39 AM


As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1997 - 2023 The Aerodrome