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Old 11 November 2002, 05:41 AM   #11
Hans
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The problem with the Fokker colours on the Fokker plans is that they are definitely no paint receipts. I have discussed that with a 'paint historian' who is responsible for nearly all WWII reconstruction paints of german a/c in the last years.

The pigments listed by Fokker on the D.VIII drawings are well known, but they never acted as a paint alone. 'New Green' isn't a paint, but a 'Körperloses Pigment', which is roughly comparable to an ink. It's a Anilin-Farbstoff. It's transparent and had to be mixed with other 'real' pigments or had to be painted on a base color. F.E. a brown stained wood wing, painted with a 'new green' transparent finish makes a perfect dark green.

I don't say DSA is wrong, I don't say Fokker D VIII never had streaked finishes, but I say: Don't take the pigments listed as a bible. You don't have receipts and you don't have 'Lackketten'. ( Lackkette = base paint, top paint, varnishes etc.).

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Old 11 November 2002, 12:26 PM   #12
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Hans-

Would you be so kind as to elaborate?
This interests a good deal and would be somewhat easy (and fun) to reproduce on a model.
Some of all of this is speculation, so what I am asking you to do is continue to speculate. What would be an approximation of the 'brown' base coat and the 'new green' top coat? In Polyscale color or MisterKit or what-have-you.
Sounds fun. Beats slobbing on a coat of "Fokker Dark Green' and calling her good.

danke.

yours,
Ken
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Old 11 November 2002, 07:29 PM   #13
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Hans Trauner:
The drawing states the four colors are STAINS, not paint. The plywood was stained and varnish applied over the stain.
Other photo clearly show streaking.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
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Old 12 November 2002, 06:34 AM   #14
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No, Sir, sorry. The 'New True Green' and the Alazin colours are Anilinfarbstoffe. They could be found in old BASF catalogues and are very exactly defined. They are no stains. It's the stuff which where added to dopes or laquers. They are no 'powdered' pigments, they are like ink. The technical expression is 'körperlos' which is 'not solid' or 'no body' if taken literally. Mixed to dope they make a somewhat transparent paint which can't be painted very good nor sprayed. If applied by brush they make a somewhat uneven streaky appearence. It would make a perfect sense for the Fokker streaky comouflage on fabric. For the wooden wing it's not necessary to use dope but a varnish or laquer. Anyway, it would produce another not very opaque paint, which could be painted more easily, but will produce also streaks which would match the streaks which are prominent on some of the Fokker D VIII wings.

These Anilinfarbstoffe are a pure german speciality. Remember the civil U-Boat 'Deutschland' which exported them to the US in exchange for rubber.

My problem is at the moment: I am not the very expert. I would not win a civil action at a US court, as all I am telling is 'hearsay', I must confess. But I am discussing these themes reguralely with my friend, but he did not find the time yet to publish sources etc. But he is developing Fokker Greens now for a D VII restoration. It's a D 7, not D 8, I know, and it will be the paints for metals and wood. Not exactly comparable to the D VIII wing, but the same 'pigments' were used.

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Hans
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Old 12 November 2002, 08:08 AM   #15
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Gentlemen-

Here's a URl that may be helpful, it translates German into English and vice versa:
http://dict.leo.orgHans, I believe I sent you this some weeks past. Here's what it coughed up when I typed "dye":
'farbstoffe'!
I could *not* source 'anilin' but I seem to recall the term "anilin dyes" so on that basis searched 'dye'.
On a hunch that both you and Dan are talking about the same thing I chased that.
This sounds similar to what is used in custom automotive paints, etc, nowadays - so-called 'candy colors' - transluscent colors that are tinted but you can 'see through them'. Think of pancake syrup for the color 'amber brown' and you have the concept....fwiw.

yours,
Ken
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Or that,
"Virtue was not convenient at the time."

This will not suffice.."

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Old 13 November 2002, 09:29 AM   #16
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Not exactly, Barker. Farbstoff is literally Farbe = paint and stoff = stuff. It expresses all materials which can be used to create paint or coloured objects. It containes 'dyes' and 'pigments' and 'inks'.

A dye is used for what we call 'färben' ( Note the Umlaut!!) , normally materials like fabric, wool, linen etc.

Dying = Färben . Verb, not Substantive.

Anilin is a technical expression , it's Aniline in english. Anilinfarben= Aniline paints, Aniline dyes, Aniline pigments. It's a chemical process to make pigments, dyes, inks. They are also called Teerfarbstoffe or tar based dyes/pigments/inks.
They are an invention from the second half of the 19th century.
See: http://www.basf.de/en/ueber/geschichte/1901.htm

Some aniline based dyes can be transformed to pigments. In other cases opaque paints were made from opaque white pigments plus the transparent dyes.

The Echtgrün ( New True Green) was a transparent 'dye', also the blues listed on the Fokker drawings.

The availablity of aniline based dyes in 1917 was also the reason to use Tarnstoff (aka Lozenge fabric) to save organic based paints/laquers. All the stuff needed to make these dyes was tar from hard coal, one of the rare resources Germany could control alone.

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Old 13 November 2002, 10:36 AM   #17
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Hi Hans-
Thanks much. Knew I was in murky waters citing German to a German!
But...thoroughly benifitted from the material you sent back, including the url to BASF (a former Agribusiness client of mine...). Dye-based 'paints' is a familiar concept to me. This is what I suspected both you and Dan were discussing. Approximating that on a E.V wing sounds like a lot of fun. Shane Weier gave me an excellent suggestion for imparting the slight 'ripple' along the ply covering of the wing, in 48 scale. In conjunction with yours and Dan's remarks, this should make for a beautiful effect - if I can pull it off.
In event, the first I've heard of all this, given this thread. Good stuff.

yours,
Ken
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"A King may move a man, a father may claim a son,
but remember that even when those who move you be Kings,
or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone.
When you stand before God, you cannot say,
"But I was told by others to do thus."
Or that,
"Virtue was not convenient at the time."

This will not suffice.."

-Baldwin Four of The Baldwin Piano Company
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Old 13 November 2002, 01:23 PM   #18
Dan_San_Abbott
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Hans:
* I think we are saying the same thing, What we call a stain is a liquid of linseed oil and turpentine with sufficient *pigment (dyes) to provide a color. In my German Taschenwörterbuch, färben is defined as stain.
* * Stain, even when applied full strength it will not cover the surface with color as would paint. *It is applied full strength and after several minutes wiped off, leaving a little color to bring out the color of the wood. *It is more commonly used by the furniture industy to enhance the color of the wood. *I suspect they may have applied the stain with rags, or with a *brush in streaks with no intent to cover the surface uniformly. At least that is what the photographs show. *Once you understand what it is you will find it on the wing of the Fok.E.V in all photgraphs.
* *In late 1918, Idflieg issued a directive instructing the aircraft industry to stop painting plywood covered fuselages and instead use colored stains to color the plywood and to finish the surface with varnish. *This is what Fokker Flugwerke did on the Fok. E.V wing and maybe the axle wing. *
* * * * * * * * * * * * Blue skies,
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan-San
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Old 13 November 2002, 11:53 PM   #19
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So it is, Dan-San

The only problem left is that the exact receipts are not known and how the stains/dyes were applied, what base was used and which varnish.

I am not sure if linseed oil based stains were used. Aniline based dyes are usually solved with alcohol and/or water. I think the Germany Ersatzstoff Industry was happy for any litre of linseed oil which could be saved, cheap (bad quality) alcohols were not on such short supply.

Let's wait and see what the 'Paint historian' will dig out. I'll inform you.

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