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Old 13 January 2007, 12:19 AM   #1
Paul Forster
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Max Holtzem claims.

In a article in the June 20,1976 Los Angeles Times Max Holtzem says about MvR,"I had flown with his command until a few days before he died ....An artillery commander saw Richthofen climb out of his plane,so he was not shot down.It is in the official German report,I want to tell you this."

We know these claims are not true.What do you make of this.Why would he make such claims?
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Old 13 January 2007, 04:22 AM   #2
StephenLawson
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Max simply told them in 1976 what he had been told by some young artillery officer in 1918. Not everyone believes the fatal shot came while MvR was in the air. I have mentioned this previously but dogma is hard to kill. There are a plethora of threads on the subject. The answer people want, is he was fatally wounded in flight not while he was attempting to climb out of his crashed machine. Capt. Fraser thought so in 1918. The truth is there is no bullet hole in the seat of MvR's Fokker Dr.I. If he was shot in the air there would be.

As a side light after the war Max resettled in California and later he became a quality control inspector on the P 51 assmbly line in WWII. He was a gentleman and a good fellow.

Good luck
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Old 13 January 2007, 10:23 AM   #3
Rick
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I might also add that Max's views were widely held by members of the Luftstreitkräfte between the wars. That is, MvR couldn't have shot down, he was too good, so he must have landed and then was killed. This was a common belief. R.
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Old 13 January 2007, 01:08 PM   #4
NeilE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StephenLawson View Post
Max simply told them in 1976 what he had been told by some young artillery officer in 1918. Not everyone believes the fatal shot came while MvR was in the air. I have mentioned this previously but dogma is hard to kill. There are a plethora of threads on the subject. The answer people want, is he was fatally wounded in flight not while he was attempting to climb out of his crashed machine. Capt. Fraser thought so in 1918. The truth is there is no bullet hole in the seat of MvR's Fokker Dr.I. If he was shot in the air there would be.

As a side light after the war Max resettled in California and later he became a quality control inspector on the P 51 assmbly line in WWII. He was a gentleman and a good fellow.

Good luck
Blah blah blah blah....

Holtzem's Opinions are all very well but really he wasn't there. They have as much validity as those of my cat, who actually believes O.J. Simpson did it (he claims the Cocker Spaniel next door told him this). My cat is a very fine cat too. But since neither Holtzem nor my cat were actually there (as compared to the eyewitness accounts of the crash) their respective beliefs are just unfounded hearsay, and therefore not evidence at all.

As for the eyewash about the seat and Lt. Fraser, we've been over that again, and again and again and again.....ad nauseum.......

You think "dogma" is hard to kill?

Nothing is so hard to kill off as unfounded conspiracy theories because there are always stupid people who wish to believe them, and always unprincipled people who want to peddle them for their own narrow self interest.....

Neil_E
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Old 13 January 2007, 10:59 PM   #5
Taz
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Neil- Are you related to Barker? Lighten up. We all (most of us, at least) believe an Australian gunner or rifleman killed MvR, but be civil to people who do not have your background knowledge, as Stephen and Rick were trying to do. The rumor MvR was killed after landing was widespread among Germans in 1918. I have read it in numerous books, the last being Richard Wenzl's Richthofen Flieger. Most recanted after the war, but not all.

Taz
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Old 14 January 2007, 01:12 AM   #6
NeilE
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Quote:
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Neil- Are you related to Barker? Lighten up. We all (most of us, at least) believe an Australian gunner or rifleman killed MvR, but be civil to people who do not have your background knowledge, as Stephen and Rick were trying to do. The rumor MvR was killed after landing was widespread among Germans in 1918. I have read it in numerous books, the last being Richard Wenzl's Richthofen Flieger. Most recanted after the war, but not all.

Taz
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Point taken Terry. I dont have a problem with new people seeking out information. We all have to start somewhere. My post was in fact directed more at Post #2. Lawson's full blown conspiracy theories on MVR's death are old news here and my point was to provide a bit of a theatrical alternative to it, pointing out its logical flaws.

If Paul is interested in the death of MVR as a topic, I recommend Norman Franks and Paul Bennett's "The Red Baron's Last Flight" which sifts the evidence for all the theories on this controversial topic before reaching their own conclusions.

Cheers

Neil_E

PS: Maybe I am related to Barker, A Great-Great-Great Uncle from Cornwall went to America in the 1870's and then disappeared forever.... so who knows?
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Old 14 January 2007, 02:49 AM   #7
StephenLawson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz View Post
Neil- Are you related to Barker? Lighten up. We all (most of us, at least) believe an Australian gunner or rifleman killed MvR, but be civil to people who do not have your background knowledge, as Stephen and Rick were trying to do. The rumor MvR was killed after landing was widespread among Germans in 1918. I have read it in numerous books, the last being Richard Wenzl's Richthofen Flieger. Most recanted after the war, but not all.

Taz
Terry phillips
Hey Taz;
Just ignore him most of us do.
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