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1998 Closed threads from 1998 (read only)

 
 
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Old 9 December 1998, 11:10 AM   #1
Billy_Bishop
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Considering the lack of hard evidence in either direction, why do some of you continue to prefer to disbelieve Billy Bishop?

VBR,

Al Lowe
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Old 9 December 1998, 11:26 AM   #2
mike_baram
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Al,
You answered your own question. Until there's proof beyond a shadow of a doubt, the jury will still be out.
Frankly, I don't have a problem. He said he did it, the odds are that he did it, it's good enough for me, but I'm not everyone.
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Mike
"Ubi dubiam, ibi libertas." ("Where there is doubt, there is freedom.")
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Old 9 December 1998, 11:39 AM   #3
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Didn't you have doubts about his scuffle with the Red Baron Al? If he was full of crap on one point that kind of tarnishes his honesty.
 
Old 9 December 1998, 12:22 PM   #4
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I think the MvR dogfight may have been ghostwritten by someone else, I believe I have heard somewhere that Bishop himself never actually claimed to have had those epic battles with Richthofen so this may be a case of a writer telling tall tales, not Bishop, but I am not certain of this.
Al, I still am interested in the Ferko comparison of Bishops victories with German loss records, have you perhaps seen it? I haven't
How does it stack up against the research you have done on this subject?

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Old 9 December 1998, 12:32 PM   #5
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a person is innocent until proven guilty. with no hard evidence against him, it only stands to reason his claims are accurate. all of the books and articles i've read about bishop seem to say pretty much the same things...so...

leon
 
Old 9 December 1998, 01:29 PM   #6
Barrett
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I'm a professional aviation historian, and am convinced that Amelia Earhart screwed up and ran herself out of fuel, but until there's convincing evidence to the contrary, we'll never know. Likewise, the Bishop subject is a lot like Who Killed MvR? Far as I'm concerned, Norman Franks nails down an EXTREMELY convincing argument for Popkin--one that would, it has been said, have gotten him convicted in a court trial. Similarly, the late Phil Markham's assessment in Over the Front (Fall 95) is excruciatingly detailed and leaves more than reasonable doubt about Bishop's VC action. However, I know from personal experience that governments, let alone military services, don't stand up, wave their hands and proclaim "We goofed; we needed heroes; we ignored our own rules." Just won't happen, so The Bishop Thing stands as written in 1917.
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Old 9 December 1998, 02:52 PM   #7
mike_baram
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Barrett,
If she ran out of fuel, wouldn't the blame belong to Noonan? After all, he was navigating. That should have included fuel consumption vs position.
Mike
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Old 10 December 1998, 04:26 AM   #8
Billy_Bishop
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My doubts about any encounter between Bishop and MvR were based on my not having seen anything mentioning it in print up to that point. I have since found several convincing articles on that subject.

I've not really had any doubts about Bishop himself. I only doubted the report that he may have crossed MG's with MvR as something of a legend, until I did finally see credible evidence that it did occur. As far as what did occur, well, those reports are still conflicting.

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Old 10 December 1998, 04:31 AM   #9
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I believe that Earhart & Noonan were in the back of the plane joining the Mile High Club, with the plane on auto-pilot. The auto-pilot failed to keep the proper course, and they got lost, and ran out of fuel.
Jeni
 
Old 10 December 1998, 05:05 AM   #10
Billy_Bishop
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I must say, I'm happy to see that some people I'd considered "gone" to the other side are at least willing to admit the jury is not in yet, and isn't likely to be.

Regarding Phil Markham's article. I've read it, and agree that it is damning on the face of it. I personally still have trouble with accepting some of the German records at face value, and from what I've learned, Stewart K. Taylor, and Dr. S.F. Wise (Both aviation historians) also have their doubts about the German records.

And as I've pointed out numerous times, as well as on my web site, so did Ira Jones.

By the way, anyone interested in WWII aces should check out http://www.billybishop.net/wade.html or
http://www.billybishop.net/johnson.html
The first one was created with the help of Barret Tillman, and both were created by me at his "suggestion."

VBR,

Al Lowe
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