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Old 21 June 2022, 11:35 PM   #21
Graeme
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In his history of No 6 Squadron RNAS, Mike Westrop gives details of the later patrol on 29 April and states "Norton then came under attack from several more enemy machines. After endeavouring to get away. Norton turned and
went through their formation, firing at one machine which went down completely out of control with the pilot thought to be seriously wounded. Norton then tried to disengage but was still being followed, he landed in enemy territory and as the enemy machines shot past he took off again and was pursued all the way to the lines at a height of 100 feet. Fletcher failed to return from the patrol, being wounded and taken prisoner."

Mike concludes that Goering's 'victory' was over Norton who actually got away.

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Old 22 June 2022, 04:35 PM   #22
R Gannon
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6 Apr 17: 2Lt Pell perhaps?

6 Apr 17: 2Lt HS Pell from 40 Sqn on Nieuport 17 A6667 perhaps.

2Lt Pell failed to return from a Special Mission targeting the German balloon at Sallaumines (4-5km south-east of Lens). The game-books would look to have awarded 2Lt Pell’s machine to M.Flak 60; credited with a ‘Nieuport DD’ at Neuvirieul. However Neuvireul is 7km SSE of Sallaumines and the location of a balloon which was attacked by fellow 40 Sqn pilot Lt HE Todd (A6677) who had departed at the same time (09.15) and sent the Neuvirieul balloon down in flames (10.00); with the observers parachuting safely, but coming under intense fire from Flak: Flaming onions (inaccurate) & small archie like pom poms (accurate). There are at least two photo of the upturned and utterly wrecked A6667 ‘IV’ (only the rear of the fuselage and tail are intact), which must get one thinking along the lines of a wing failure, particularly in view that it was Lt Todd who attacked the balloon at Neuviriel where M.Flak 60 was subsequently credited with a Nieuport.
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Old 23 June 2022, 05:52 PM   #23
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8 Apr 17: Maj Milot.

Anybody who dives one of the Nieuports seven thousand feet needs to have his health worried about.’ Cpl W Bourne, the AM for Lt WA Bishop.

8 Apr 17: Maj JA Milot from 60 Sqn on Nieuport 23 A6764.

Maj Milot was a member of a five strong OP led by Maj Jack Scott, the CO of 60 Sqn, which also included Lt WA Bishop & 2Lt HE Hervey. Circa 09.20 and when flying at 11,000ft Maj Scott observed an Albatros 2-seater evidently between Douai and Fouquieres. Maj Scott dived on it and getting off three bursts at close range before suffering a cocking device malfunction, ‘…I turned away but saw another Nieuport scout following the HA down, diving steeply’. The height cited on the Combat Report is: 11,000 - 4,000ft. Scott later added a hand written notation indicating that the Nieuport he saw ‘diving steeply’ was flown by ‘Lt Bishop’, however ‘Billy’ only reported in his Combat Report, ‘I dived after Maj Scott on a two-seater opening fire twice as he was already diving. I then engaged single seater…’ Billy would lay claim to six subsequent combats with German machines and a balloon [all without any witness and firing off all his drums evidently without any of the stoppages which blighted everyone else]. Maj Milot failed to return and no one saw his going - sadly he has no known grave. The Nachrichtenblatt Abschusse would accord Vzfw Festner from Js 11 credit for ‘Nieuport ‘C6’ Typ 23 2865’ [evidently the original French serial] east of Vimy as his #7, elsewhere timed 09.30 and given as diesseits. Flugsport simply has ‘Nieuport-1 2865, pilot killed’ however it is reasonable to deduce that these references allude to the wreck of A6764.

The point is that whilst later Billy claimed that he followed behind Maj Scott in the attack on the 2-seater, he only fired twice because the machine ‘was already diving’ at which point he was supposedly being distracted by the single-seater: when looked at clinically Billy’s accounting of events in no way intimates that he dived passed his CO, let alone chased the 2-seater in a steep dive down to 4,000ft and below. This must raise the suspicion that the Nieuport which Scott observed ‘…following the HA down diving steeply’ could conceivably have been that of Maj Milot, who never returned. Tim Hervey would later relate that Albatros scouts climbed up to engage the Nieuports and whilst one should not doubt that Vzfw Festner was piloting one of them and fired upon a Nieuport circa 09.30, lacking anything beyond game-book visibility, it is unsafe to leap, as far too many do, into concluding that Festner had fired upon the Nieuport of Maj Milot, only that the Jasta 11 NCO was evidently accorded credit for the wreck of the French Canadian’s machine. It should not be overlooked that 2Lt Hervey briefly duelled with these Albatros, before a stoppage forced him to recross the lines [subsequently recrossing to be felled by Flak (K.Flak 43) when going to the aid of some FEs east of Arras], and if Billy is to be believed, he also scrapped with four German scouts. As such and returning to the missing Maj Milot, it is conceivable that he could have been yet another victim of a wing failure, indeed the steep dive at 4,000ft witnessed by Maj Scott might belie the lower wings of the said Nieuport had already folded back.
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Old 24 June 2022, 05:16 PM   #24
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8 April 17: 2Lt Owen.

It is my considered opinion, in view of the inherent structural flaws, that all Nieuport & Sopwith Triplane fatalities over the German side for which there is no witness to show they were actually shot down by German machines, other than the game-book entries, deserve to be examined and not simply taken for granted as reflecting a genuinely won aerial victories.

8 Apr 17: 2Lt TJ Owen from 29 Sqn on Nieup 23 A6765.

Details which I have at hand are sparse but 2Lt Owen failed to return from an OP which clashed with Albatros scouts SE of Arras 19.10. No one saw his going but his grave was later found at Henin [s-Cojuel]. According to the game-books his loss would seem to reflect a ‘Sopwith’ (sic) awarded to Ltn Schlenker from Jasta 3 NE of Croisilles (4km SE of Henin) timed 19.10. On the other side of the coin; 2Lt A Sutherland was credited with an Albatros evidently ‘destroyed’ at exactly the same time: unfortunately I have not been able to secure a copy of the Combat Report which would not only provide visibility on the claim, but also as to who was doing the attacking. As Jasta 3 evidently did not suffer any loss serious enough to make the Kofl returns, it could well be that the ‘Albatros’ which was reported as ‘destroyed’ actually reflected a ‘fog of war’ misidentification of the doomed Nieuport of 2Lt Owen. Pointedly 2Lt Owen’s name does not appear in the April ‘Flugsport’ listing: presumably one of the five Nieuports recorded down in German lines during April for which no details were ascertained. Moreover the fact that Schlenker evidently identified his opponent as a ‘Sopwith’(sic), as opposed to the distinctive ‘silver’ Nieuport, does not inspire any great confidence that the Jasta 3 pilot got to close grips with his opponents. As such a wing failure must loom as a possibility.
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Old 25 June 2022, 06:23 PM   #25
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14 Apr 17:three of four missing 60 Sqn Nieuports.

14 Apr 17: 2Lt J Cock on Nieup 17 B1511, Lt W Russell on Nieup 17 A6796 and perhaps 2Lt LC Chapman on Nieup 17 B1523 - all 60 Sqn.

The above three reflect three members of a five strong OP led by Capt A Binnie flying at 12,000ft which came upon two 2-seaters at 8,000ft south of Lens and east of Douai. Capt Binnie evidently led his flight down at 09.15, however 2Lt GC Young observed two Albatros scouts off to his right and broke off so as to engage them, ‘…I opened fire but my gun jambed after about five rounds. My shots went wide. My machine got into a spin and when I came out I could see nothing of the patrol.’ These two Albatros were almost certainly from Jasta 11 as the staffelfuhrer recorded, ‘Above Arleux one of our observer planes was attacked by several Nieuports. I hurried to the place of the action, attacked one of the planes and forced it to land 1 km. south of Bois Bernard’. Lt Russell would later record in his RPS, ‘I attacked one of these machines and then discovered to my horror that I had lost my engine. After descending another 1,000ft I was attacked by two enemy scouts and I was obliged to make a zigzag descent to the ground and landed at Bois Bernard. A red scout followed me to the ground and I learned the pilot was Richthofen…’ In hindsight, Lt Russell probably owed his life to the fact that MvR would later conceded in his Dicta, ‘I can never hit a manoeuvring opponent.’ Evidently Capt Binnie(A6772)was hit in the shoulder when changing his Lewis drum and fainted but survived a crash landing within Lens to be taken prisoner - his ‘Nieuport 6772/2976’ was awarded to LvR as his #6 (E Fouquieres 09.20), whilst credit for ‘Nieuport Eins B1511’ (2Lt Cock buried at Beaumont) was accorded to Ltn Kurt Wolff as his #14 (SE Drocourt timed 09.20). Vzfw Festner was accorded credit for a ‘Nieuport’ which according to the game-books fell right in the German forward front line at Gavrelle: timed 09.15; this has been popularly taken to reflect Nieuport 17 B1573 flown by 2Lt Chapman. Chapman evidently died of wounds or injury two days later on 16 April but has no known grave. However another Nieuport evidently crashed near Fresnoy, which is somewhat closer to where other 60 Sqn Nieuports came down, than the one at Gavrelle. It would appear the one down at Fresnoy was awarded to Obln von Doering, the SF of Jasta 4, as his #1 timed 09.34 (see next appraisal).

If one applies a ‘game-book appraisal’ then the combat appears as a resounding triumph for MvR and his Jasta 11 over the seemingly hapless Nieuports of 60 Sqn. In truth however we only have useful visibility in regards one of the four Jasta 11 credits: that of MvR’s victory over 2Lt Russell; who was more the victim of engine failure than any supposed superior aerial combat skill on the part of Germany’s Number one. On paper the first to triumph was Vzfw Festner with a Nieuport downed at Gavrelle timed 09.15, however the credit is problematical in that Gavrelle is 10km SSW from the main scene of the action whist the time would seem to match the experience of Lt Young, who turned away to engage two Albatros at exactly the same moment (09.15) and who’s Nieuport fell into an involuntary spin. If on the other hand, his supposed victim Lt Chapman came down near Fresnoy, and not Gavrelle, then being less than 4km SW of Drocourt, where we must assume 2Lt Cock smashed fatally to earth, then a collision between Chapman & Cock when diving on the 2-seater should not be ruled out. And if not, then a wing failure in regards 2Lt Cock - the out-right fatality - is another very plausible explanation.

Some might argue that Wolff was at that moment a 13 victory fliegerkanonen with three Nieuports already in his game book, but in truth his 30 Mar & 7 Apr Nieuport credits look shaky when put under the microscope and only his forcing down of 2Lt Fox-Russell (29 Sqn) just inside British lines on 13 April looks to be truly above suspicion. Whilst MvR and his Jasta 11 had certainly enjoyed predatory success over obsolete BE2s on artillery work and straggling and equally obsolescent FE2bs returning from reconnaissance’s, it is a leap of faith born of game-book appraisals, to believe that they were somehow out-standing scrappers against capable single-seaters; as there is simply no British eye witness of this supposed superior dog-fighting talent, excepting perhaps the staffel’s success over four very obsolete FE8s on 9 Mar 17. Indeed LvR echoed his brother’s words, ‘If the Englishman flies straight ahead and a good marksman sits behind him, then the Englishman will fall during the first shots. But if the opponents begin to twist and turn, then the chances of hitting him are slim.’ Undoubtedly Capt Binnie provided LvR with that straight flying moment when he was forced into changing his Lewis drum, but just how Festner and Wolff were able to deliver such decisive fatal blows to Lt Chapman & 2Lt Cock defies the run of evidence, unless of course they were beneficiaries of pfennigs from heaven. For my money Festner more likely fired upon Lt Young [who fell into a spin] whilst for all we know Wolff could have been wingman for MvR chasing down the engineless Lt Russell.
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Old 26 June 2022, 08:21 PM   #26
R Gannon
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14 Apr 17: 2Lt Pascoe.

14 Apr 17: 2Lt EJ Pascoe on Nieup 23 A6794 from 29 Sqn.

Limited details presently at hand, but 2Lt Pascoe was evidently a member of an escort provided for 11 Sqn FEs on a photo-recon which came under attack from German scouts when over Vitry circa 09.50. FE2b 7702 was shot about (gunner killed) whilst two of the other FE crews sent two of the attackers down seemingly OOC. 2Lt AG Jones-Williams from the escort also sent an Albatros earthwards (between Nieuvireuil &Virty timed 09.50), but 2Lt Pascoe failed to return and no one saw his going. Pointedly 2Lt Pascoe and or his A6794 do not figure in the Flugsport listings. The game-books awarded a ‘Nieuport’ to Obln von Doering, the SF of Jasta 4 as his #1: south of Fresnoy (2km north of Nieuviruil), however the quoted time of 09.34 is 15 minutes earlier than the combat proper. As noted above, there exists the possibility that the Nieuport down near Fresnoy could have been that of 2Lt Chapman from 60 Sqn (see previous) and if this was so then 2Lt Pascoe would look to have been the pilot of the Nieuport which came down in the German front lines at Gavrelle (which is 3km SW of Nieuviril) and being right on the front line would go a long way to explain why Flugsport does not cite either 2Lt Pascoe or A6794). Either way on account of the fatal results, a wing-failure cannot be discounted.
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Old 27 June 2022, 06:09 PM   #27
R Gannon
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Bloody April - known wing failures.

Some certifiable proof that wing failures were an ever present threat for Nieuport pilots during Bloody April

19 Apr 17: Lt EC Mannock on Nieup B1509 from 40 Sqn – low wing fell off at 1,500ft when practicing diving on targets at Bruay aerodrome but was able to get down and land, B1509 turning over in the process.

28 Apr 17: 2Lt HG Ross on Nieup 23 B1572 from 60 Sqn – wings folded during when pulling up to quickly diving on ground targets (target practice). Landed on Filescamp Farm aerodrome flying level at 100mph without wings – severely injured.

30 Apr 17: 2Lt A Penny 60Sqn from 60 Sqn on Nieuport 17 A6718.

On the morning of the last day of ‘Bloody April’ 2Lt Penny was as a member of A Flight OP led by Capt WE Molesworth. 2Lt Penny together with Capt Molesworth dived upon a HA which turned underneath them and when pulling out of the dive 2Lt Penny lost the lower left wing of his Nieuport. Luckily Penny was able to retain some control and regain British lines making a forced landing east of Arras with A6718 ending up on its nose.
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Old 28 June 2022, 12:05 AM   #28
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Just a couple of quick points:

Mannock was flying B1540 - Right-hand lower plane broke off at 1,500 feet and overturned on landing during target practice. Repaired at 1 AD, B1540 went on to serve with No 29 Squadron until written off in a bad landing by 2nd Lieut John Henry Mitchell on 13 August.

Ross was flying B1512 - Wing folded up while pulling up too quickly from diving on ground target - landed flying level at 100mph without wings; the Nieuport was Struck Off Charge on 30 April. The connection with B1509 is that Ross had flown this machine from 1 AD to 60 Sqn on 8 April; it was lost on 16 April when flown by Lieut John MacCreary Elliott. Hugh Graham Ross recovered from his injuries and later served with No 64 Squadron.

The casualty reports says that Penny force landed A6718 at Wagnonlieu after the lower port wing came off; Wagnonlieu is a little under 6 Km west of Arras.

These niggles aside, Russ' post shows that pilots had to be somewhat circumspect when flying the Nieuport.

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Old 28 June 2022, 11:51 PM   #29
R Gannon
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16 Apr 17.

16 Apr 17: four Nieuports from a 60 Sqn patrol of six failed to return.

This has been covered in post in the collisions thread. Essentially at 08.05 on a day of low clouds and rain; Lt JM Elliot (B1509), 2Lt RE Kimbell (A6769), 2Lt DN Robertson (B1501) & 2Lt T Langwill (B1507), together with 2Lt HL Leckie (B1547) took off on an OP led by 2Lt GAH Pidcock (A6770). Only 2Lts Pidcock and Leckie returned to Filescamp Farm. As the game-books awarded Nieuports to Ltn K Wolff (NE Rouex at 10.30), LvR (between Rouex & Pelves 10.30) and Vzfw Fester (NE Baiches 10.30) from Jasta 11; the impression has since crystalized that, ‘…Jasta 11 rose to meet them. At 0930 (1030 German time) the two formations met. In a running fight between Baiche and Rouex, Lothar von Richthofen, Wolff and Festner each shot down one Nieuport. In fact four Nieuports went down, three of the British pilots being killed while a fourth died at Douai the next day…’ [BABS]

If one is prepared to delve deeper than game-books then the actual flow of events is as follows: at about 09.15 the experienced 2Lt Pidcock observed a kette of four Albatros flying at 4,000ft over the Scarpe; two of which dived on a BE2 which was flying between Rouex & Plouvain, Pidcock reported, ‘…The patrol got on to these and I got onto one above, I was following him down when another got onto my tail, I turned round to him and he put his nose down and left the fight. I circled round but could not see the other HA because of the clouds.’ 2Lt Leckie reported that he twice upon German machines flying at about 2,000ft, but without result, where after and unable to find any other members of the patrol he returned.

Post war the grave of Lt Kimbell was found in Rouex, however there are no known graves for either 2Lt Robertson or Lt Elliot. The grave of 2Lt Langwill was discovered post-war at Douai where he had apparently died of wounds on the following day - a photo exists of Langwill’s badly crashed B1507 ‘4’ (lower left wing still attached) with German soldiers casually standing around. The thing is that Rouex was right on the front line and the scene of intense fighting at the Chemical Works just north of the town and whilst the Germans clung on to Rouex, the ongoing battle rather precludes any chance of photo opportunity with any downed machine, strongly suggestive that Langwill’s B1507 reflected the Nieuport awarded to Vzfw Festner which had evidently come down north-east of Baiches; a town on the Scarpe canal some 4km to the east of both Rouex and the bullets and shells of the front line. Furthermore the marshy ground flanking the Scarpe Canal formed into a sizable lake to the immediate west and south of Rouex making it every bit plausible that two of the Nieuports came down in the inundated area with one simply disappearing from sight.

As such it possible to offer the plausible reconstruction that the Nieports of Kimbell, Robertson & Elliot, which had evidently dived on the two Albatros molesting the BE2, came down within a two kilometres radius of Rouex and with fatal results; which more realistically reflects some combination of a collision and a wing failure, as opposed to the popular game-book driven appreciation that two of the three fell victims to Kurt Wolff & LvR, despite the lack of any witness for this beyond the game-books. Pointedly the BE2 did not receive any appreciable damage from the lower pair and if one takes on board that fact that the upper two Albatros showed little fight when taken on by Pidcock then it is reasonable to assume that the lower pair would have made off east, once attacked from above [as is the recurring theme elsewhere]. One might further suspect that Lt Langwill chased the lower pair east over Baiches, only to be set upon from behind by Vzfw Festner; who may well have been the pilot of one of the upper two Albatros tacked by Pidcock. One might hazard that telephone inquiries were subsequently made on the behalf of LvR & Wolff in regards a ‘BE’ possibly downed near Rouex; however instead there was the surprise report of two wrecked Nieuports: one to the NE and the other to the SE of Rouex which then became # 89 & # 90 in the staffel game-book: which together with Vzfw Festner victory brought Jasta 11’s game-bag to #91, just nine shy of the eagerly sought after 100.

Apparently Festner’s Albatros had taken hits in the motor during his combat (Pidcock perhaps?) and the NCO affected a forced landing.

Apologies in advance if there are any serial number transcriptional errors - can't afford a proof reader.
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Old 29 June 2022, 04:22 PM   #30
R Gannon
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The devil of detail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme View Post
Just a couple of quick points:

Mannock was flying B1540 - Right-hand lower plane broke off at 1,500 feet and overturned on landing during target practice. Repaired at 1 AD, B1540 went on to serve with No 29 Squadron until written off in a bad landing by 2nd Lieut John Henry Mitchell on 13 August.

Ross was flying B1512 - Wing folded up while pulling up too quickly from diving on ground target - landed flying level at 100mph without wings; the Nieuport was Struck Off Charge on 30 April. The connection with B1509 is that Ross had flown this machine from 1 AD to 60 Sqn on 8 April; it was lost on 16 April when flown by Lieut John MacCreary Elliott. Hugh Graham Ross recovered from his injuries and later served with No 64 Squadron.

The casualty reports says that Penny force landed A6718 at Wagnonlieu after the lower port wing came off; Wagnonlieu is a little under 6 Km west of Arras.

These niggles aside, Russ' post shows that pilots had to be somewhat circumspect when flying the Nieuport.

Graeme
Hi Graeme,

Of course I could have invoked the Captain Mainwaring response, “I was wondering how long it would take you to pick those two” but yes, it was a bit of a brain fade on my part when transcribing those two serial numbers: it happens when one is forced into presenting a great deal of data so as to surmount the bulwarks of myth and not always inspired 1990s wisdom in order to make a salient point – I take it all the rest are correct? The point being that we can no longer afford to take the German game-books on face value when drawing conclusions about the WW1 air war; as I believe there is compelling circumstantial evidence that wing & engine failures together with collisions took a steady and not inconsiderable toll of those who failed to return from missions over the German side.

Cheers Russ
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