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Old 30 January 2024, 02:51 PM   #11
R Gannon
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Slight of figures.

Originally Posted by Chocks Away View Post

From Y.T

British RFC/RAF losses =/= German losses All fronts.
1915 50 / 27
1916 357 / 67
1917 1811/ 296
1918 2508 / 662

Attachment 42383

Wow u-tube. I don’t know where these German figures have been conjured up from, but Neumann’s tables show that the Germans ADMITTED to the combat related loss of 652 machines on all fronts during 1917 and have 1,798 machines listed lost in combat all fronts from Jan 17 and up until the end of September 18. And even then, these figures only represent the 100% losses, and if you want to get an idea of how many German machines were actually brought down in combat then you can multiply these numbers by at least three. Four, if you want to include those that made down on nearby airfields – the Germans of course fighting over their own side were much closer to their airfields than the Allied airmen.

Our hearts so stout has got us fame
For soon 'tis known from where we came
Where'er we go they fear the name
Of Garryowen in glory.
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Old 31 January 2024, 02:59 AM   #12
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by R Gannon View Post
Yes Vince, if you had been paying attention over the last 10 years or so, you will discover I’m very dismissive of the effectiveness of the Schlachstaffeln in operations against the BEF.

Ha! Ha! Love that one!
Didn't realise you'd been effortlessly outmaneuvering, our covey of Hun Lovers, for that long. You want to keep looking over yer shoulder mate, the Kaiser's put a price on yer melon!

"Gentlemen, remember.
Always above,
seldom on the same level,
never underneath."

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Old 31 January 2024, 01:39 PM   #13
Chocks Away
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I stand corrected.

YouTube again Sorry.

D.Winter, I Mackersey & H.D.Davies Go and stand in the corner!

Screenshot 2024-01-31 at 19.10.33.jpg

Screenshot 2024-01-31 at 19.13.09.jpg

Screenshot 2024-01-31 at 19.13.49.jpg

PhD chappy this time with what appears to be a little Historical research behind him on the figures.

Not everything you read in books (or newspapers) is Ture.

19% which is about the same deaths in training as in WW2.
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Old 4 February 2024, 02:45 PM   #14
Frederic Mason
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Am I correct in saying that Jastas' strength was usually smaller than RFC/RAF squadron strengths, so comparing casualty numbers for efficiency is flawed?
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Old 6 February 2024, 02:21 PM   #15
R Gannon
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Originally Posted by Pips View Post
I'm reading an interesting book titled "Boomerang On The Fuselage" by Lance Rainey. Which is about Australia's efforts in the air during The Great War.

One chapter is devoted to Major Richard Bloomfield, an Australian. Major B was the highly energised Squadron Leader that got 56 Squadron up and running and took it to France in April 1917.

What caught my eye was the stated number of casualties suffered by 56 Squadron during the war, namely: 40 KIA, 31 POW and 20 WIA.

Are those figures correct? That seems a frighteningly high number, given a squadron strength of roughly 20 pilots at any one time.

If correct is that a typical loss rate for RFC Fighter squadrons?

Crickey mate, I would have thought you had read ‘High in the Empty Blue’; Alex Revell’s unparallel history of 56 Sqn, which details every claim and every loss and their circumstance – it leaves no room for ‘amazement’ in regards the number of casualties suffered by the hard fighting squadron which all but chased the much-vaunted Jagdstaffeln out of their own skies during the Third Ypres. However. it seems to me that your thread is simply following the Aussie tradition of stirring the pot, but with a ladle which I’m not truly convinced is of Aussie origin. So, following the tradition I will stir the pot in the opposite direction and add in plenty of salt. Alex provides an ‘appendices II – 56 Squadron Casualties – An Evaluation of German Victory Claims’ which was compiled with the input from Alex Imrie and Gustav Bock. Each and every of the 77 pilot losses has an evaluation with the following breakdown: 13 are attributed to Flak & ground-fire, 8 during combats with 2-seaters, 5 have no conclusion, 2 not enemy action and 49 are attributed to the pilots of the Jagdstaffeln.

However, forty-four years of diligently logging details of combats has seen me less and less inclined to accept the veracity of German game-book credits without other supporting evidence. Sure, one can broadly match 49 game-book credits to 49 of those losses, but precious few of the losses were actually observed being shot down by German fighters, and when they were [or we have the RPS] they tended to be by multiple assailants. And even then, some of the matches accord German game-book credits more of a benefit of a doubt than they deserve. For example, 2Lt O Price lost on 4 Nov 18 goes down as a victim of Oblt Bolle, the SF of Jasta Boelcke, whereas his SE5a was seen to be hit by Flak and spin down – so one more for the Flak column and one less for the Jagdtstaffeln. But if you had been taking note of my ‘Pfennigs from Heaven’ appraisals, then there are compelling grounds to suspect that 10 of the fatal losses incurred during 1917, where more likely the result of wing or engine failures when diving on, or chasing after German aircraft [and not the other way around], whilst two more may well have been the victims of an unwitnessed collision, but as the Germans were left in charge of the evidence; all the wrecks were awarded to pilots from the Jagdstaffeln seemingly on the basis they had fired upon an Allied aircraft in the same general area. And indeed, I’ve pushed this line of inquiry into 1918, and again quite 10 of the 1918 fatalities also have the look of being be prime candidates as ‘Pfennigs from Heaven’. Indeed, I would go as far as to suggest fewer than 30 of 56 Squadron’s 77 pilot casualties genuinely fell victim to the pilots of the Jagdstaffeln and importantly ALL in air-battles over the German side.

Our hearts so stout has got us fame
For soon 'tis known from where we came
Where'er we go they fear the name
Of Garryowen in glory.
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Old 6 February 2024, 04:27 PM   #16
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The 1968 reunion at Claridges that Mr Revell attended. That’s something we late-comers can never experience. Well I could have gone I guess , if I’d known it was on. But being served at the bar at three years of age might have been challenging.
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