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2001 Closed threads from 2001 (read only)

 
 
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Old 22 November 2001, 03:25 AM   #1
leo
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Some medals awarded permitted the winner to assume a title of nobility.
Were these titles of name only or were grants of land given along with the title?
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Old 22 November 2001, 06:09 AM   #2
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The "von" is one sign of nobility in German speaking countries. The kingdom of Bavaria had at least one medal leading to the title of nobility:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/medals/germany...varia/momj.html
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Old 8 December 2001, 03:18 PM   #3
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Some British awards bestow knighthood, but I don't think you can call that nobility. These can be awarded to military or civilian recipients and are generally "for services rendered" A KCB might be awarded to a general or a brain sugeon, either would then become Sir but the title is subordinate to the rank or position. eg: General Sir Brian Horrocks, Doctor Sir John Tanner.

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Old 11 January 2002, 06:24 PM   #4
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Some of the Russian orders carried the grant of nobility, it was either personal (descendants could not inherit) or the inheritable one. It depended on the specific order and on its grade. However, I doubt it carried the grant of land, at best the chance of accelerated promotion.
 
Old 20 January 2002, 08:52 AM   #5
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Doesn't (didn't??) the French Legion of Honour, in the officer class confer the rank of Chevalier? (Knight)??

VBR,

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Old 20 January 2002, 12:36 PM   #6
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No, Al, because the Republic of France (like the Republic of the United States) does not bestowe knighthoods on its citizines (or anybody else).


In the British system, titular honours (knighthoods and peerages) are accompanied by formal titles ("Sir", "Baron" etc) as well as appropriate postnominal letters such a KBE, GCMG, etc

The French republican system of honours is entirely different from that of either Britain or Canada. Notwithstanding that "Chevalier" translates literally as "knight", a Chevalier of the Legion of Honour is in no way comparable to a British knighthood (much less a peerage). Not even in France does a recipient of the Legion of Honour add either titles or postnominal letters to his or her name, and if our new External Affairs Minister, Bill Graham (who is a Chevaier of the Legion of Honour) were to use his honour as justification to be called "Sir Bill" the French would be the first to ridicule such posturing.

Comparing a British knighthood to a Chevalier of the Legion of Honour amounts to confusing apples with baseballs.
 
Old 22 January 2002, 10:00 AM   #7
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I know France is a Republic, but don't they still have people with titles and such?? Or did they wipe all that out?

Did the Legion of Honour EVER confer anything close to a knighthood? Or did they just add the Chevalier title to the Legion of Honour to confuse the heck out of us??

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Old 22 January 2002, 11:16 AM   #8
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France (nay, Europe) is still thick with folk who parade their ancestral titles; newspaper society pages and Paris Match magazine would miss them if they all suddenly vanished. There are even folk with competing titles (for example, there are two Iranian Shaw pretenders, one the son of the late Shaw who was deposed in 1979 and one the grandson of the Shaw who was deposed in 1920 by the father of the late Shaw).

When the Legion of Honour was created (by Napoleon) the various ranks and titles had meanings appropriate to the day - but that was 200 years ago. We are more accustomed now to terms that have lost their meaning, or are misleading. A poem circulated at AFHQ, Ottawa, during the Second World War spoke of the Jackson Building "where Wing Commanders have no wings and F/Os seldom fly" (if anybody has the full text, let me know !).

Simply put, in 21st century republics, when people buy titles as regularly as they inherit them, these terms "Chevalier" and "Barons" etc amount to zilch - zip - nothing. In some cases, less than nothing (descendants of the former Italian royal family are still forbidden to live in Italy). The constitution of the United States forbids titles and the U.S. is not unique in that regard.

Let me tell you about Prince Antoine d'Orleans and Braganza, a claimant to both the titles of King of France and Emperor of Brazil (two countries that abolished these positions). Prince Antoine and his brother were forbidden to live in France, so they were being educated in Austria. When the First World War broke out they paid formal respects to their distant cousin, Emperor Franz Joseph of Austria, said goodbye, and were allowed to leave. They then offered their services to France, declaring they were willing to serve as private soldiers. The President of France said "NO WAY", so they applied to Britain, which granted them honorary commissions. I do not know what happened to his brother, but Prince Antoine ended up as a liaison officer attached to the Canadian Cavalry Brigade in France, where his equestrian portrait was painted by official war artist Alfred Munnings (thus the Canadian War Museum has a painting of a French prince with an Austrian education wearing a British uniform and sitting on a Canadian horse). Prince Antoine switched to the Royal Air Force and was killed in a training accident.

Which may not be relevant to the discussion but makes (in my opinion) a good story.
 
Old 22 January 2002, 08:33 PM   #9
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TOTALLY AMAZING!!! And they say Politcs makes for strange bedfellows. It seems that nobility, both real and paid for can make for some strange goings on!!

VBR,

Al Lowe

P.S. Thanks for the enlightenment!!!
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