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2001 Closed threads from 2001 (read only)

 
 
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Old 6 February 2001, 08:14 PM   #1
Peter S.
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I was visiting Al Lowe's Holy grail and perusing Bishop's list of victories and I noticed there were none against Fokkers.
1 Presumably there wouldn't be any against the DV11 because it had not come into service with all Gerschwaders. Started to be delivered to Aircraft Parks in April 1918.
2 What about the DR1? Was it still around? i.e. When was it withdrawn? Ira Jones met one when he came out with 74. Bishop was out from May-June with 85.
I don't draw any conclusions from the above. It's just one of life's interesting oddities.
VBR
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Old 6 February 2001, 10:30 PM   #2
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The "art of aircraft" identification was not very strong developed among a lot of pilots in WWI but Bishop "knew" obviously only three "types":
Albatros and Pfalz, additional the 2 seaters were sometimes called Aviatik-2 seaters. I am always wondering that he was never claiming a DFW C.V - the most frequently produced and used German aircraft! Other Allied top aces, like Mc Cudden, knew this type very well. Strange, strange ...
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Old 7 February 2001, 01:41 AM   #3
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Apologies: there were two Fokker D3's on 22 April 1917 but none on the May- June 1918 outing.
Sorry to be careless.
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Old 7 February 2001, 02:35 AM   #4
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Peter S. questions is still justified. Only Dan Mc Caffery´s victory list claims he got two Fokker D.III as DD and DOOC. What is Mc Caffery´s source for the claim that three pilots of 60. Squ. were confirming Bishops (and not another guys) victories of the "possibly"-category as Fokker D. III? If I am not very mistaken Bishop himself claimed never Fokker D.IIIs.
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Old 7 February 2001, 06:08 AM   #5
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Gents,
Apparently, one must look thru the 60 sqdn book to find mention of any Fokker types. Up until Bishop arrives, only 4 Fokker types are listed as victories before Bishop arrives. 1 of those goes to Ball.

according to the list, Bishops 22/4/17 claim is a Fokker D type. apparently his 9th victory. ATT lists it as a Alb DIII. after that, i cant find any while Bishop is there in 60 Sqn.

how they came to differ, is a good question.

as far as the Dr1, it served with less successful units as the D7 came online as i recall. not sure how many were in service until the end, but i do know Jacob's was in service until , what, October when it was destroyed in an aerodrome attack(?).

60sqnd last Dr1 victory was on 5 June 18, fwiw.

fwiw,
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Old 7 February 2001, 09:19 AM   #6
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Peter S.:
The Fok. Dr.I fully or partly equipped 15 Jasta in March 1918, 16 in Apri, 17 in May,and 10 to the end of June. These Jasta for the most part were opposite the British Front, The Fok. D.VII arrived at the front in April and was at the AFPs. At the end of May the D.VII partially equipped 15 Jasta, and at the end of June, 27 Jasta. If Bishop did not engage any, I would find that difficult to understand, a good many other pilots were. 85 Squadron was opposite the German 4. & 6. Armeen of which 4 Jasta had D.VII in May and 5 in June. It would be interesting to see if other members of 85 Squadron had engaged any Fok. D.VII? Graeme? Ref. OTF,Vol.5,No.4 (Fok.DR.I), OTF. Vol.15 No,3(D.VII)
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Old 7 February 2001, 10:41 AM   #7
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Fokker DR.1 in frontline units in 1918

Feb/March: 143
April: 171
Mai: ?
June: 118
July: ?
August: 65

Source: Flugzeuge die Geschichte machten: FOKKER DR.1 by Jörg Armin Kranzhoff, Motorbuch Verlag, 1994, ISBN 3-613-01514-5, written in German

Hope this helps!
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Old 8 February 2001, 08:52 AM   #8
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I did some research, admittedly only from secondary sources and came up with the following:
1 (King of Air Fighters) May 26th. 18 S.E's and 12 Bristol Fighters (20 Squadron) engaged and fought what appeared to be 40 Triplanes, Pfalz and Albatross fighters.
2 May 29th (K. of A.F.) Came across a formation of 6 S.E's newly arrived from England (led by Horn). Mick waggled his wings and Horn and the flight joined him.
3 June 17th (Jones Diary) A. & C. Flights (74) did a combined stunt which ended with Roxburgh sending a Fokker Biplane to his eternal home.
4 June 21st (Warbirds) Bishop recalled
5 June 23 (War Birds & Jones) The other day Caldwell & Cairns collided while attacking a Fokker.
There is definitely a preponderance of Albatross and Pfalz in the area but the DR1 was in combat only 3 days before 85's arrival. I do not know whether Bishop's combat reports on his solo patrols show whether he engaged any Triplanes. The one certain thing is, that he did not shoot any down.
McGregor of 85 Squadron suggests that he did not engage the DV11 until the 7th July.
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