The Aerodrome Home Page
Aces of WWI
Aircraft of WWI
Books and Film
The Aerodrome Forum
Sign the Guestbook
Links to Other Sites
Medals and Decorations
The Aerodrome News
Search The Aerodrome
Today in History

Subscribe to remove ads

The Aerodrome Forum

Subscribe to remove ads

Go Back   The Aerodrome Forum > WWI Aviation > People

People Topics related to WWI aviation personnel

Closed Thread
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 15 September 2006, 07:17 PM   #1
Rob Romeor
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 71

René Fonck WWI Ace of Aces with 127 Kills?

IIRC René Fonck was credited with 75 Victories, but with unconfirmed claims may have shot down 127??? Has anyone done an analysis of his claims to see if he indeed was the WWI ace of aces?

Thanx Rob ‘not Romeor' Romero
Rob Romeor is offline  
Sponsored Links
Old 15 September 2006, 10:56 PM   #2
Forum Ace of Aces
rammjaeger's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 1998
Posts: 4,593

There is an old rule here, Rob:

Unconfirmed is unconfirmed - already the confirmed victory scores are in general overclaimed scores in nearly every air war. Add the unconfirmed victories and you will get very unrealistic inflated numbers of victories.

To my knowledge nobody came up (until now) with this kind of research for Fonck. It seems also questionable if anybody can succeed with this project.
You are needing date, time, location and aircraft type of all his claims and you need an equally good record of German losses. Both is not available.

As well do not forget to check the other high-ranking French aces - they claim often a number of dozens of unconfirmed victories too. So it could happen that another French ace could get more real (means verified with German data) victories than Fonck.

I think the whole precedure is not fair to the German aces too who had other rules for victories and was not allowed to claim victories in situations when an Allied pilots would get confirmation. Or are you able to tell us: How often did the Red Baron (or others) give up claims because they thought they have no chance for confirmation according to the rules? As well the German pilots in their memoirs did question the high number of Allied vitory claims in general.

Nevertheless the French pilots suffer from the lacking knowledge and somtimes even ignorance of todays enthusiasts and historians.
As well the Britons do love to share the bias of German pilots in this case.
If Frenchmen would publish in English language or if english-speaking publishers would care for translation of French books, articles etc. then the situation could change.

My homepage:

Last edited by rammjaeger; 16 September 2006 at 03:46 AM.
rammjaeger is offline  
Old 16 September 2006, 04:14 AM   #3
Forum Ace
retread's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 818

Rene Fonck is the enigma of WW1 aviation. Usually described as a boastful opportunist unpopular with his comrades he also has been characterized as a man of high intelligence and quiet to the point of seeming shy. My guess is that these are probably two sides of the same coin. A matter of perspective. It has been suggested that on occasion Fonck bullied other pilots out of claims. Fact? Fiction born out of dislike and/or jealousy? I certainly don't know and from what I have been able to read, discuss, and not least glean from the forum I am not sure any living person has the answer.

Fonck's autobiography, published in the U.S. with the title "Ace of Ace's" is thin on detail and large on ME. From what I understand it was written (ghost-written?) as self-promotional material at a point in which Fonck was dabbling in politics.

Look in the forum's aces section and see the signature descriptions attributed to Fonck by his flying peers and himself to get an idea of the complexity of the man.

Fonck would make an excellent research project that attempted to clear up the confusion related to his place in Great War aviation as well as to who exactly was this man. Unfortunately as rammjaeger pointed out that opportunity, if it ever exsisted may have been lost.
"In the final analysis, war is far more than an extension of politics. It is the most complex, demanding, and unpredictable of all human endeavors - as learned from 1914 to 1918." - from (with slight alteration) the introduction of "Pyrrhic Victory" by Robert A. Doughty (US Army Ret.).

"Frankly, I had enjoyed the war." Adrian Carton de Wiart

Last edited by retread; 16 September 2006 at 04:31 AM.
retread is offline  
Old 17 September 2006, 12:55 AM   #4
Posts: n/a

Hi Rob,

Here is a link to a recent biography written on Fonck:

Also, here is a link to a past thread concerning this very topic:


Closed Thread


rene fonck

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rene Fonck Balloon_Buster People 60 17 June 2006 04:47 AM
Fonck, René ww1 ace People 31 6 January 2006 12:19 AM
René Fonck BJD 2002 27 6 April 2002 09:45 AM
Rene Fonck-125 kills??? DV 2000 79 14 August 2000 09:03 AM
Rene Fonck Gert Pretorius 1998 6 17 December 1998 02:29 AM

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:43 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like v3.2.9 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Copyright ©1997 - 2014 The Aerodrome