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Other WWI Aviation Airfields, equipment, tactics, training, uniforms and all other WWI aviation topics

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Old 14 February 2003, 12:36 AM   #1
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Hello one and all,

This is my first post to this forum and sadly I have to start with a moan. :'(

I have over the past few weeks trawled through various posts and have come to the conclusion that it is customary to 'de-bunk' or question all things British, whether British aircraft or 'aces'.

I find it unsettling that at almost every opportunity a direct or indirect 'dig' is forth coming from certain quarters. Being English, I must say I'm used to it, it's apart of our history to be disliked, or not trusted. However this thrend seems to continue in our hobby. My interest is the unfashionable area of WW.I aviation that is all too often overlooked, BOMBERS.

Is it a case of let's 'Bash the Brit's' just for the sake of it. I think in a number of cases it is.!

I will either be 'shot down' in flames by your responses. If that's the case I want 4 independent witnesses, a confirmed crash site and a report from the vanquished, after all we Brits do tend to be over energetic in our claims, or I will be totally ignored.

Either way,I will be happy to answer.


Old 14 February 2003, 02:41 AM   #2
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Bomber, welcome!

Although I have virtually nothing to offer in way of Bomber info on WWI, I will say that I don't feel any underlying anti-British sentiment here. *Due to current events, there seems to be a little bit of France bashing going on, though.

Anyway, don't be so down on yourself! *If bombers are your passion then by golly, keep your chin up and learn what you can! *I can honestly say that I've never met a British citizen that backed down from a good scrap!

Cheers! *
Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat. -Theodore Roosevelt

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Old 14 February 2003, 03:11 AM   #3
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Welcome to the forum! It is way too diverse here to detect any realy trends regarding who's bashing whom. One item that comes up a lot is that the British system for counting victories was rather generous when compared with other countries' systems. Most of us, however, simply view that as a historical fact; not an attack on the British.

If you're interested in British bombers, do some searches on Hugh Trenchard and the Independent Air Force (IAF). Be sure to set the search function to look farther back than 7 days. Try 365 days.

Drew Ames

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Old 14 February 2003, 04:14 AM   #4
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Bomber -

An over-energetic generalization! I think you have to read a little more closely into the various opinions here on the forum and consider that just about anyone, given enough anonimity, will argue vigorously!

The point about over claiming has been debated to the point of exhaustion - both in material and mental energy. My position on that is that the instant anyone can say "I knew so-and-so well and he was a nefarious character who openly admitted overclaiming....", I might agree. Until then, I say, they were there, we were not. The official records are in many cases the only remainingl authority and if we are going to question a man's character, we better have more depth to our evidence than this....

I for one have found, uniformly among all the nationalities that I have worked with over the years or whose activities I have researched from the WW I era, excellent characters and reprehensible ones. So I find the stereotyping of one or another nation's character an exercise in futility.

As for your passion for bombers, anyone who does any reading or serious research into the activities of the IF during the war cannot question the character of the men who constituted it.

The more I see about their activities, the more respect I have for them. I read a very admirable remark from an American assigned to a British bomber squadron in which he said he preferred the bombers role because his goal was not to make war on individual men, but to make war "... on war itself." by destroying the mechanisms which allow the enemy to continue. Prett intelligent stuff for a 23 year old. How many fighter pilots would have said that !

Stick around the forum, I am sure we can all learn something from each other.



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Old 14 February 2003, 04:34 AM   #5
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Bomber: Welcome! I think you are correct but, on my part at least, the bashing (too strong methinks)comes from only reading and speaking English. If I was fluent in French, German, Italian or Russian, I'm sure I could find plenty to question there, too. The irony isn't lost on me, though, that a country on the winning side(?) should be painted in such harsh colors. Of course, many of the people supplying paint for that pallet were British themselves. I also found, though, that once you scratch beneath the surface just a bit, you find things are not as neat or as simple as we would like. Reading threads on the forum have caused me to do a lot of scratching, much to my benefit.
Old 14 February 2003, 01:47 PM   #6
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* Welcome to the 'Forum'. you will find discussion on the RFC/RAF bombers, both day and night and the Independent Force.
* I would say, the air forces of all nations are discussed, sometimes cussed. *I think for the most part, you will find us genial.
* Some points to be wary of are:
1. Billy Bishop. one thread went to over 1200 responses. *watch out for Al Lowe.
2. Another is the "candy striped" Fok.Dr.I, this one gets violent, along with yellow nosed Triplanes flown by Voss.
3. Who shot down the Red Baron? This one has caused a rift between Canadian and Australian members, don't pick Roy Brown, try BB, it might work, you will have Al on your side.
4. You will find it addicting.
Join us and have fun.
* * * * * * * * * * * Blue skies,
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan-San
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Old 14 February 2003, 02:39 PM   #7
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Welcome Bomber !

While my main interest is in the German Air Service, without the British and the other allied pilots, how would a Jasta pilot ever get into a scrap? It would be quite boring if the Germans didn't have such a heroic, cocky and self-assured lot to fight! As far as British bombers are concerned, one of the hottest ships in the air was the de Havilland DH4 of the Royal Air Force, able to out-run all of the German fighters of the time. These bombers had their share of the aerial victories as well.


P.S., I find no problem with an 'OOC' claim being part of a pilot's victory list; as in the case of a prize fighter, when you make a fellow leave the fight, you definitely won a victory.
Old 14 February 2003, 05:50 PM   #8
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Anglophobia? Or just Germanophilia? So far, I have not noticed as much outright bashing of the British as I have a mania for all things German. There is a diiference. I am an ANglophile myself, but when I put forth a similar question in another post, I got a surprisingly rational response. This bunch may well be different than most such groups. I certainly hope so. I am sick and tired of taking abuse and crap from the German lovers because I like British stuff...It has gotten so bad I detest building models of the few German a/c I think look cool: The Etrich Taube, Albatros C-III, and W-4. If I ever BUILD A @#$@%## fOKKER D-VII, it will be a captured example in the markings of 9th Aero, USAS! I am a model builder, primarily of larger scale(1:96;1:48 scale) warships, mostly RevWar,1812, Civil War, Late Victorian/Great War. But ships are long term projects, so I kill short bits of time between ships with Great War a/c. I attend IPMS contests, and a lot of these folks are closet German-worshippers.. Not all. SOme good friends in IPMS. But about 60% are socially defective folks who live in their parents' basements, are past 40, single, and rarely bathe. They are fascinated with anything teutonic to the point of autoeroticism. They are little different, IMO, of those whose fascination w/star trek stuff takes on an unnatural bent. I am sure you all know the type. Anyway, what about the German method of assessing kills? They didn't do shared kills, did they? If that was the case, might not it be likely that "shared kills" were credited to the senior officer present, thereby inflating some German aces' kills? It seems to me if you look at all wars, and all the 'kills" claimed by all involved, It may well amount to a number greater than the total of all a/c deployed in a given campaign by all forces involved!
Old 14 February 2003, 06:34 PM   #9
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Dear Bomber,
Please allow me to welcome you to the Forum as well. Personally, I like the British, and have an interest in all the combatants of WW1. All the major participants turned out some good equipment.
If I may, I would like to add to Mr. Abbott's list of topics to avoid- another would be Frank Luke Jr., at least the circumstances about his death. This one also seems to generate strong feelings. It is best left alone.
Warm regards, willy
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Old 14 February 2003, 11:50 PM   #10
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While we're at it, never, ever, ever, never, mention Lothar shooting down the angelic Albert Ball!!!!!! *I'm still reeling..... *

Oh, and last but not least: *BEWARE THE OFF TOPIC THREADS!!!! *If you're faint of heart, overly-sensitive, or PC, don't go there. *It's where angels fear to tread! *Ok, well, it's not that bad but things can get rather.....heated....

Ok, one more, if you read the forums while standing on one foot and scratching your left elbow behind your back with your right pinky while singing "I've Got Rythm" you'll find it a more enjoyable experience. * *
* * * * * *
Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat. -Theodore Roosevelt

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