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Other WWI Aviation Airfields, equipment, tactics, training, uniforms and all other WWI aviation topics

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Old 19 January 2003, 05:55 AM   #1
rammjaeger
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Did anybody do the following math in the past?

Take the most successful 10 or 20 German fighter pilots and compute the number of victories against British, French, US-Americans?
Clear, MvR got the most Britons but who was the topgun against French pilots etc.?

I guess the most successful pilots fighting Italians and Russians are not to find among the German Top 10 or 20.

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Old 19 January 2003, 02:43 PM   #2
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Hi Rammjaeger,

Lt. Gustav Dorr from Jasta 45 shotdown 34 French airplanes, and a Sopwith Strutter. I think this is the highest number for French designed airplanes. I don't know who was piloting all them, but most of them probably were flown by Frenchmen (maybe an American?). I guess a lot of research can be done on this subject, as even balloon have a country of origin that may be hard to determine without knowing which front the kills were obtained on. Very interesting topic!

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Old 23 January 2003, 10:43 AM   #3
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Hi wingedwarrior,

it really looks like there is still an enormous amount of research work to do! Dörr seems to be a good choice - until now I did not see better candidates.
Summary: The French top aces scored more Germans than German top aces (fighting the French) were able to shot down French aviators.

One reason more to assume the Frenchmen are underated in the traditional books describing air combat in WWI.
I know others will claim the Frenchmen were only cowardly acting and therefore not easy to bring to battle
but I saw enough British statements claiming similar things about the Germans ("refusing" or "unwilling to fight" , "used only parthic methods of fighting" etc.) and I am not believing this BS.

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Old 23 January 2003, 11:15 AM   #4
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Scanned very hastily the results of Jasta pilots on the Italian front. If I counted correct Gaim of Jasta 39 achieved 5 victories and made the top scorer in the short time on the Italian theatre of war.

Did I miss more successful men there?
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Old 23 January 2003, 12:24 PM   #5
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I believe that Lt. Georg Hantelmann brought down the highest confirmed number of American aircraft, nine in all. Granted, there may have been kills claimed as 'Spad XIII' or 'Breguet XIV' by other pilots that may have been crewed by Americans, but there is no way of determining this. Lt. Buchner destroyed five, and Lt. Noltenius as well as Lt Muller of Jasta 18 claimed four a piece.

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Old 23 January 2003, 01:15 PM   #6
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If I remember right,have not checked for awhile
but there were a few high scoring French,
but after them it falls off pretty fast
 
Old 23 January 2003, 01:18 PM   #7
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Hi Wingedwarrior,
I assume you looked through Above the Lines? I found the listings in The Jasta War Chronology a little bit more detailed concerning claims. I came to a slightly different result, though there is no changing in order

von Hantelmann: 12
Büchner: 11
Näther: 9

Of course I could have overlooked some claims...

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Old 23 January 2003, 01:28 PM   #8
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Rammjaeger,

Uffz. Bernhard Ultsch, Jasta 39, also scored 5 victories in Italy. R.
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Old 23 January 2003, 02:20 PM   #9
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Hello Immo,

Yes, I was using 'Above the Lines'. I really need to get The Jasta War Chronology'. Using this as a guide, is there anyway to determine if Lt. Dorr destroyed the most French flown aircraft? I would hinder a guess that the Sopwith Strutter (possibly another type as the Strutter was not in wide use at this time) he destroyed was piloted by a Frenchmen. What do you think?

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Old 24 January 2003, 02:54 AM   #10
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Hi Wingedwarrior,

according to the The French Air Service War Chronology SOP 106 lost a Sopwith on 17 Mar 1918 within the french 7.Army sector. The Sopwith went down in flames. The crew MdL Valadon and S/Lt. Bessec were both KIA. Unfortunately no exact location for this loss is given. At this time french 7.Army belonged to Army-Group East and was located in the vicinity of Epinal and Remiremont. (at least I think so...)

Lt.Dörr claimed his Sopwith near Montzeville ca. 20 km away from Verdun in western direction. That is too far away from french 7.Army sector.

So the claim by Dörr remains a mystery... :-/

And yes, you can find a lot more information regarding Dörr's claims in "TJWC". I recommend it highly. It is a great research tool! I think too, that Dörr was the top-scorer against the french.

Regards, Immo
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