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Old 10 November 2006, 02:09 PM   #1
Rob Romeor
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Ace vs. Ace

Since my Verifiable Victories project has come a cropper. Let me ask a less demanding question.
What Ace vs. Ace encounters are you aware of:

Here are a few I can think of off the top of my head

Lothar Von Richthofen (40) vs. Albert Ball (44) –head on passes –Lothar crash landed near Balls wreck –Ball KIA in controversial circumstances –probably damage/Thunder cloud windsheer/Vertigo/Pilot Error combo. –Germans sealed the deal in giving Lothar credit for the victory by putting a few (more?) holes in Balls fuselage –Ball crushed –no battle wounds.
-Manfred Von Richthofen (80) vs. Lanoe Hawker (7 Victories -3 ‘Kills’ - 1VV) –23 Nov 16 Sorry, although an innovator of squadron employment, I don’t consider Hawker an ace with only 1 Verified Victory).

Sailor Malan (32) vs. Werner Mölders (115) –Mölders WIA BoB -28 Jul 40
Helmut Wick (56) KIA vs. John Dundas (13) KIA vs. Rudolf Pflanz (52) BoB -28 Nov 40 –Wick was diving out of a fight and heading for home when he was bounced by Dundas who reported the victory over the air, just before getting clobbered by Pflanz who had observed Wick bailing out into the freezing English Channel.
Hans-Ulrich Rudel (9 Aircraft & 519 Tanks) vs. Col. Lev Shestakov (26) – 13 Mar 44 Shestakov KIA shooting at Rudel in Nap of the Earth Pursuit –he was either shot down by Rudel’s gunner or got caught the Ju-87’s wash and slammed into ground.


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Old 10 November 2006, 03:11 PM   #2
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You could perhaps advance this topic by picking up a copy of "Who Got (Killed?) the Aces" by Norman Franks. Can't remember the exact title. R.
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Old 10 November 2006, 06:42 PM   #3
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Aces vs. (future) Ace

I just finished reading Shloto Douglas' first memoir (Years Of Combat, Collins, London 1951).

On December 29th, 1915, while flying with RFC No. 6 Squadron, Douglas maintains that he was jumped by both Boelcke and Immelman . He was piloting one of two B.E.2c's sent to do reconnaissance betwen Cambrai and St. Quentin. After his escort was shot down, Douglas dived down almost to the ground and for the next half hour fought off repeated attacks by the Germans on the long trip back to the lines. In his memoir, Douglas cites two germn sources to back up his story: "Knight Of Germany" (Johannes Werner quoting from Boelcke's own diary) and Franz Immelman's biography of his famous brother.

oops.... as I check my facts here it seems that I am wrong; Douglas never achieved ace status. That surprises me, seeing as he had such a long career. Oh well, it's still a good story, damn it! He also documents a fight he had with Herman Goring, who, oddly became one of his main opponants when he was in charge of Fighter Command in WW2.
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Old 10 November 2006, 11:53 PM   #4
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Thumbs up

Sailor's smartening up of Molders is one of my favouritr myths () of the Battle of Britain. These days some say it was a bloke from a different Sqiadron, flying a Hurricane if memory serves, who sent Werner scuttling back over the 'Kanal' wounded in his smoking Bf109.
ps A little weedy Hun fellow called Wermer Voss fought several Aces and impressed 'em all in his last fight.
pps the book's called 'Who Downed The Aces In WW1' written by Norman Franks.
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Old 11 November 2006, 08:37 AM   #5
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Another Ace vs Future Ace encounter took place on 7 May 1917 between Leutnant Kurt Wolff and Arthur Rhys Davids. At this time, Wolff was an established Kanone with more than 20 victories, and Rhys Davids was a talented but inexperienced novice. As might be expected, Wolff took Rhys Davids by surprise, the first warning to Rhys Davids that he was under attack being streams of tracers from behind. During that first pass, Rhys Davids' S.E.5 took hits to the engine and began streaming water. Wolff had his opponent cold, but for some reason broke off his attack, and flew off east. Rhys Davids was able to glide over the lines and make a forced landing in a field near a friendly aerodrome.
"A surprise attack is much more demoralising than any other form, and generally results in the person attacked diving or pulling the machine into such a position that it forms a most satisfactory target for the few seconds necessary to deliver a decisive blow. " - R. S. Dallas
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Old 12 November 2006, 12:20 AM   #6
Bettors Pub
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Neckel (30) shooting down Booker (29) on August 13, 1918 is a verifiable encounter between major aces.
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Old 16 November 2006, 11:02 AM   #7
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Von Richthofen vs. McCudden

Just posted a question regarding this one. On December 27th, 1916 Von Richthofen and James McCudden met in combat. Von Richthofen claimed McCudden's DH 2 as a kill for his 15th. This was when McCudden was still a neophyte (between his 1st & 2nd kills). However, as in my post, there is some confusion here as McCudden states he returned to his aerodrome after this confrontation still in one piece although somewhat holed (in his bio "Flying Fury"). I'll let you read it and see what you think. Also, refutted apparently in the book "Under the Guns of the Red Baron".

"Du doch nicht!!"
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Old 16 November 2006, 09:58 PM   #8
Paul Forster
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Georg von Hantlemann downed three Allied aces.The Americans David Putnam(13),Joseph Wehner(6) and the French ace Maurice Bayau(35).

Fritz Rumey also got three.EC Eaton(5),GB Crole(5) and JJ Dawe(8).

Heinrich Kroll got two aces.Rene Dorme'(23) and St.C C Taylor(10).

Egon Koepsch brought down two.KW Junor(8) and JE Doyle(9).

Josef Raesch downed two.EC Hoy(13) and GW Wareing(9).

Lothar got another ace besides Ball.JK Summers(8).
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Old 16 November 2006, 11:12 PM   #9
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"Lothar got another ace besides Ball."

Without putiing a bullet in either the man or his machine?
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Old 17 November 2006, 08:32 AM   #10
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two of my favorite ace v. ace stories :
von Banfield vs. Baracca
Udet vs. Guynemer
both encounters apparently ending in draws!
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ace vs ace, richthofen

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