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Other WWI Aviation Airfields, equipment, tactics, training, uniforms and all other WWI aviation topics

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Old 1 March 2007, 06:17 AM   #1
IMBLITZVT
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LMG08/15 parts kit. First Thread Hello

Hi All,

I am new here and have been looking over the forum a little. I am more of a Gun guy but love WWI aircraft. I have fallen in love with Maxims and I have been buying them anywhere I can find them.

I just picked up a LMG08/15 parts kit. Here are some pictures:


http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe...5BackPlate.JPG
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe/LMG0815Front.JPG
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe/LMG0815Parts.JPG
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe/LMG0815Parts1.JPG

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe...15Receiver.JPG
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe...15TopCover.JPG

Its hard to see but the receiver is all smashed up (and cut several times). The trunnion is pretty smashed too. So I will be looking for a few parts for the gun. I know I need, the front sight, cocking handle cam, rear latch, parts for the synchronizing gear (plunger), Trunnion and bottom plate. I am have several other maxims, so I am always looking for other parts too but if you have any of these LMG parts you want to sell, please let me know at [email protected]

But the real reason I posted was to find out more info. The gun and most of the parts are marked 422b. The top cover is a not marked except for a "394". The rear plate also has a different number. I figure the square bullet counter makes it a little rare and it seems like I have a very early top cover.

I have the Devils paintbrush (new edition) but other then that, I do not know much more about the gun and how it was mounted. I ordered a book last night called Flying Guns of World War I. Hopefully that will be useful. I really need any info I can find on the gun. I need some detailed pictures of how the synchronizing gear worked and interacted with the lock. Any info will be helpful and I will continue to search for the forum for more info.

Thanks all and you guys have a great site here!
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Old 2 March 2007, 11:56 PM   #2
Dave_Watts
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Hi IMBLITZVT,

I'm a real nutball when it comes to these LMG's, I wrote the material/illustrations on the LMG's that Dolf printed in his Devil's Paint Brush. I've documented every LMG I've been able to find whether it be in photos, documents, reports, or actual surviving examples.

I would need a few more photos to give you more details, but I can tell you a few things. As you pointed out your gun is made up of three guns, 422b, 394, and some other gun # on the butt plate. It appears the trigger "lock" is missing. What are the numbers on the barrel, butt plate, and feedblock?

As you know the left side plate and reciever dictate what number the gun is, in your case this is 422b, so we'll say your gun is 422b. It appears most of the parts are marked and matching to 422b. The butt plate not only is non-matching, but it appears the crank assembly was never fitted with the dagger actuator for the square rounds remaining counter. So speaking originality wise 422b would not have had the counter fitted.

Your "Segenhebel" (the bronze casting piece with the steel arm marked "D.R.P.A.") yields some answers. As you may notice it is riveted in place, so as to NOT allow it to be flipped forward and flopped backwards. This piece fits to the right side of the main gun body. You may notice the crank assembly by the cocking arm is missing a cam shaped piece on its pivot axle. There should be a "quarter-cam" steel piece fitted and a linkage hanging down with a pull handle going back for the pilot to use to clear dud rounds. I think I posted images of such a handle on the forum before. I'll get you an e-mail to see what I can help you with.

The fact that your "Segenhebel" is riveted, shows that most likely this was a field modification to the cockpit pull handle, as I have found by this time fully cast examples have the arm as part of the casting in the 90 degree position and guns were coming fitted with the fully cast version along with the cockpit pull handles straight from the airplane factories. Therefore the gun would originally been fitted only with the base charging handle and the flip/flop Segenhebel.

422b is a fairly late gun made approx. in August of 1918 and installed/accepted maybe in September/October. As far as history, I have nothing, but of interest is the Fokker D.VII in Brome County Canada, 6810/18 (O.A.W.) has gun numbers 883b and 921b. It appears this aircraft was never at the front or just delivered, so most likely your gun is from a US war booty aircraft with odds being it would be from a D.VII, but that is speculation.

The top lid, numbered 394 is an early number for sure. Produced approximately in July of 1916. I have seen earlier examples, I have gun number 58, and I've seen gun number 67. The early cover lids lacked the arsenal and gun designation markings that later guns carried.

The lid for your 422b lid would look something like;

422b
L.M.G. 08/15.
Gwf.
SPANDAU
1918

The early gun numbered 394 would have had this information on the fusse spring cover.

You may be able to get your top lid number welded in and re-engraved properly to match your 422b gun.

I have some good history on many Spandaus. As far as history with your 394 top lid, I have very close match but not exact. From my research I found gun numbers;

395 was accepted/fitted to Fokker D.II 1534/16 on 12/12/16 (December 12th, 1916)

396 was accepted/fitted to Fokker D.II 1513/16 on 2/12/16 (December 2nd, 1916)

I don't see your gun number assigned to any Fokker so I wouldn't say it was fitted to another Fokker, as if it where the acceptance sheets would have shown it. Sorry...close, but no cigar!

Best wishes,
Dave

Last edited by Dave_Watts; 3 March 2007 at 02:50 AM.
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Old 3 March 2007, 03:15 PM   #3
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"I'm a real nutball when it comes to these LMG's, I wrote the material/illustrations on the LMG's that Dolf printed in his Devil's Paint Brush."

Thats awesome, that is the only source I have been using and thought it was very very well done... I just wanted more of it... like 20 pages!

"I've documented every LMG I've been able to find whether it be in photos, documents, reports, or actual surviving examples."

Well I will be more the happy to help you document mine. It came out of a VFW Lodge in WV in the 80s. A guy bought it for 90 bucks and then sold it to me last month! If you would like more of the story, I will send it in an email.

"I would need a few more photos to give you more details, but I can tell you a few things."

They are free just tell me where to point.


"It appears the trigger "lock" is missing."

Yeah whatever was between the 4 blade/ball system and the lock trigger bar (actually the lock is gone too, I have an extra).

"What are the numbers on the barrel"
422b but its welded up. I have an extra
"butt plate" 1352
"and feedblock?"
and fusee cover and all other parts are marked 422b

"but it appears the crank assembly was never fitted with the dagger actuator for the square rounds remaining counter. So speaking originality wise 422b would not have had the counter fitted."

Very good thinking but wrong. The crank assembly plate were welded to the side of the receiver and the front (from lock springs) was cut off. I had an extra step and have moved the crank system to the new plates. I just did not drill them for the two rivets for the dagger actuator... But yes it came with cut 422b marked plates with a dagger actuator. I can take pictures if you would like.

"You may notice the crank assembly by the cocking arm is missing a cam shaped piece on its pivot axle. There should be a "quarter-cam" steel piece fitted and a linkage hanging down with a pull handle going back for the pilot to use to clear dud rounds. I think I posted images of such a handle on the forum before. I'll get you an e-mail to see what I can help you with."

This is an area of confusion for me as the crank screw was gone but does look sightly machined rounder then my other mg08/15.

"with the fully cast version along with the cockpit pull handles straight from the airplane factories. Therefore the gun would originally been fitted only with the base charging handle and the flip/flop Segenhebel. "

I really need a picture of this "cockpit pull handles" to understand it.

"422b is a fairly late gun made approx. in August of 1918 and installed/accepted maybe in September/October. As far as history, I have nothing, but of interest is the Fokker D.VII in Brome County Canada, 6810/18 (O.A.W.) has gun numbers 883b and 921b. It appears this aircraft was never at the front or just delivered, so most likely your gun is from a US war booty aircraft with odds being it would be from a D.VII, but that is speculation."

Very very interesting. That makes sense why I have a non matching "early" topcover. They were probably running short of material. I agree war booty and probably sent by the Government to the VFW lodge.

"You may be able to get your top lid number welded in and re-engraved properly to match your 422b gun."

No thats ok, its part of the history of the gun now. Who knows, that late in the war, it could be correct or maybe it took a bullet in the top cover and back plate and this was what they replaced it with.

Man, I was hoping for a little help... this is more then I was even hoping for. Please let me know what you think know what you know now and what I can take pictures of the help you out more. It really is a cool gun. I was thinking of taking a trip down to Dulles Air and Space just to see the gun "in action"

I could really use a picture of how the gear/trigger system works.

I will try to take some more pictures later and post them.

Thanks!
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Old 3 March 2007, 03:48 PM   #4
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First Edit,

The synchronization brass gear assembly is marked 10808 on the upper square part. It has all 4 balls and a 4 blade gear inside. I am still having a hard time seeing how this worked? I see how this gear could stop the gun from firing but did it also make if fire or an I missing those parts?

Also what is the attachment point on the right side of the front of the waterjacket for? I have never seen them used?

Other notes include that I still have the base for the front sight, but its broken off and the front part above the "V" is gone.

"I really need a picture of this "cockpit pull handles" to understand it." I said this before but I think its in the middle diagram from the devils paint brush, you probably know what I mean. Did this handle change anything on the cocking handle itself? I do no alteration on the front point of the handle.

Last edited by IMBLITZVT; 3 March 2007 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 6 March 2007, 11:34 PM   #5
Dave_Watts
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Hi,

Sorry for the delay, been busy as hell!

We have a new computer system that is open platform and I'm having fun trying to get my stuff working again so I can post photos of the cockpit pull...patience.

The device on the bottom of the gun fired the gun, it didn't interrupt the firing. In short the motor fired the gun via a drive system the pilot engaged when he pulled the "trigger" on the joystick. You may hear ball bearings in the device, there are four, the device is driven by the camshaft which is half the speed of the crankshaft so four pulses/triggering of the gun for every two revolutions of the crankshaft = the prop blade came in front of the gun four times, therefore the gun shoots once every time the prop blade goes by, (it is true as the motor speed goes up and the device pulses faster and faster it hits a critical speed which is faster than the gun can fire and the rate of fire drops in half and then picks up again, drops, picks up again, on and on). I figured this out and posted the chart of the rate of fire on the Aerodrome, it was interesting as your instinct is the gun would fire at a constant rate of fire, but it does'nt at all.

I would still like to see a photo of the rear of your crank assembly as I would be surprised if it had the holes for the two long thru rivets that secure the dagger, and the fusse cover would be notched out for the dagger as well...is it notched out?

From my research it is evident these guns were issued with armourer's kits with spare parts for much of the gun. I would guess the top cover was from a later swap or refit after its capture and not a field modification, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

The matching barrel is unusual and a rarity for sure. I've only seen one totally matching complete, original, unaltered gun. The norm was for a part to be removed and tossed so as to render the gun a war relic. If the gun is "complete" you almost always find the feed pawl or firing pin or some other part has been damaged to again make the gun safe.

The butt plate is 1352, no italics lower case "a" or "b" stamped below or after, (with a four digit number due to spatial confines they sometimes dropped the letter completely or put it under the number)?

Yes, you found the correct diagram from my article showing the pull handle. Your gun would not show any real modificaton to the normal base charging/clearing handle, but as you noticed the normal aircraft tube piece with the quarter cam piece "shark fin" is missing on your charging handle axle. The reason I know the pull handles was utilized is from the rivet on the "flip-flop" device, this only means one thing...cockpit pull handle. I swear in my article I show the slot in the "shark fin" piece that allow the retaining pin to pass forward and backward when using the base clearing handle. I call it a clearing handle because that's what is does if you think about it, only if you pull by hand the fabric belt one round forward will you advance the belt, that's the reason for the "flip-flop" device, it mimmicks the firing of the gun, pulling back the barrel and actuating/advancing the feed block bringing in a fresh round.

I haven't checked my e-mail yet, but e-mail me at;

[email protected]

and I'll send you some photos directly.

That holder you mention out on the end of the gun jacket, no one really knows what it's for. On other types of guns you could have a rod going from it back to the end of a ammo box to steady it. It may have been they thought of using the gun as a rear gun for a two-seater where the gunner would need the ammo box fitted and movable with the gun. As it turned out they used Parabellums almost exclusively.

Best,
Dave
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Old 7 March 2007, 02:57 PM   #6
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Ok I got it now. I think I understand how it was fired.

I would still like to see a photo of ...is it notched out?"

Here you go. Both are numbered "422b".
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe/LMG0815Dagger.JPG
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe...plateFusee.JPG

"The matching barrel is unusual and a rarity for sure."

Note the barrel is plugged (welded)
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe/LMG0815Barrel.JPG
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe/LMG0815Numbers.JPG

"The butt plate is 1352, no italics lower case "a" or "b" stamped below or after, (with a four digit number due to spatial confines they sometimes dropped the letter completely or put it under the number)?"

Man you are good. As you can see, you can not tell with the dirty back plate. However it is marked with a "1352b" on the catch.
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe...5Backplate.JPG
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe...BackNumber.JPG

Why are the whole drilled in the feedblock. I think they are tapped. I would guess for some kind of belt guide? Also note the black paint on barrel.
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe...5Feedblock.JPG

Here is some of the damage. The bottom plate was ripped off and bent up. I will probably have to get a new one. The trunnion was cut in half and the back half was smashed. I do not know if I can get it back to where I can use it. The recoil plates are cut and welded for a complete lose other except for the dagger.
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe/LMG0815Damage.JPG
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe...15Trunnion.JPG

I sent you and email. Please do let me know if you can help me out with any parts. Thanks again for all your help!!!
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Old 7 March 2007, 09:28 PM   #7
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Hi Earl,

Nice photos!

To be sure, you are correct when you stated the 422b gun had the dagger fitted. In your photo, "LMG0815Dagger" you have the fusee cover on its side and you can see the square "notch" window built into the rear of the cover to allow the dagger to come out the back of it. Again, proof from the beginning the 422b gun originally had a dagger fitted.

It just may be that the butt plate with counter was fitted as a replacement in the field, especially since the number is so close. Just as well it could be the butt plates got mixed up after they were removed from War booty planes. As you will note the claw on the side of the butt plate is marked "352b" showing the entire butt plate assembly counter and all was used as a replacement.

You are correct on the tapped holes on the feedblock face, they are for securing an empty belt exit feed tube that would angle forward to guide the belt into the empty belt box, (typical of a Fokker D.VII, as I would guess your gun was originally fitted).

The painted barrel is interesting. I'm guessing it is a post war thing, as I've not seen it before. Do you think it's possible they could have painted the barrels in the field to keep them from rusting? As I've stated, it is very rare to find the original barrel as fitted to the gun, so other guns barrels I've studied are retrofits. I tend to think not, as no other parts on other guns have been painted black. As much as the guns are maintained, they would have been oiled and cleaned daily.

I'm presently making up some replacement pull handles for restoring some other guns, so I should be able to help you out!

When you talk about restoring the gun back to operating status, are you talking about just that? I thought you might get into trouble "remanufacturing/restoring" a non-operable machine gun. You mentioned an BATF application to get it in as a semi-auto?

Best,
Dave

Last edited by Dave_Watts; 7 March 2007 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 8 March 2007, 03:37 PM   #8
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"The painted barrel is interesting. I'm guessing it is a post war thing, as I've not seen it before. Do you think it's possible they could have painted the barrels in the field to keep them ...are maintained, they would have been oiled and cleaned daily."

I really do not know.The rest of the gun does look a little like it has been painted, as its darker then the blued booster. However where the barrel has scratches in the paint, its almost red underneath. Its like its got a red primer. I find this more with older paints. So maybe post war but not modern. German, American...etc... I do not really know how would would know who painted it. However it does look a little like the jacket and bullet counter are painted with a different black color... its hard to say for sure.

"I'm presently making up some replacement pull handles for restoring some other guns, so I should be able to help you out!"

That sounds great! I am going to talk to the guy from replicagun and see if I can get a cam from if you do not know where else to get them.

"When you talk about restoring the gun back to operating status, are you talking about just that? I thought you might get into trouble "remanufacturing/restoring" a non-operable machine gun. You mentioned an BATF application to get it in as a semi-auto?"

Yeah, those damn ATF... No I was not thinking FA as that would be illegal unless I can find one of those $6-7K side plates floating around.

I am pretty young for the machine gun world and missed out on cheaper FA guns. So I have been building semi auto guns. I have build a 1919a4, 7 AK style, and a FAL. I am currently working on a semi MG42 and a Semi Vickers.

I would think the semi Vickers would be of interest to you plane guys. Here are some links below:

http://www.projectguns.com/vickers.html

http://www.1919a4.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6833

IMA still has many Vickers parts and a few kits left.

My plan is to get a registered side plate for my MG08/15 but turn the LMG 08/15 into a semi auto only gun. I hate to do it but there is no other legal way to get this gun shooting. I would rather it shoot one bullet at a time then none at all. I might have to stick a pistol grip on the gun to get it to work until I figure out some way to get the gear system working. The Maxim semi design should be out soon. There are several people working on it now.

Thanks for the help!
Matt
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Old 8 March 2007, 07:21 PM   #9
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Hi Earl,

Not to change threads, but if I may ask how is the gun "registered" as a semi-auto, or isn't it?

I understand where the new plate is engraved with the words "semi-auto", but I thought simply replacing the side plate with a new plate that states "semi-auto" is not enough as the gun would still be fully-auto?

Does the Halo company need to do the install and "remanufacture" the gun as a non-auto?

If so, I'm guessing only a side plate made by Halo is legal?

What is done to the gun to render it semi-auto, (alter the feedblock), and does this have to be done by Halo?

Is "paperwork" or a registered sideplate really worth $6 - 7K? I would think guys would have a Class III gunsmith render fully-auto aircraft guns into semi-auto guns as I don't know anyone that shoots aircraft guns, they simply want them as relics.

I'm guessing one would have to write to ATF to get permission to convert an F-A into a S-A and would have to be a Class III manufactuer?

Sorry for all the questions, but I find this very interesting.

Yes, you would have to fit a MG tirgger and grip assembly, and a butt stock is nice as well, and then you can shoot it. I have a gun set up like that and fire it regularly.

Best,
Dave
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Old 9 March 2007, 05:12 AM   #10
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"Not to change threads, but if I may ask how is the gun "registered" as a semi-auto, or isn't it?"

Well, in most of the country a semi auto rifle is not registered. Its just like buying a rifle from the store. Semi auto belt feds follow standard rifle rules. There is no need to register the gun as you are allowed to make your own rifles.

"I understand where the new plate is engraved with the words "semi-auto", but I thought simply replacing the side plate with a new plate that states "semi-auto" is not enough as the gun would still be fully-auto?"

You are not required to write semi auto on the new plate. BUT you must make internal changes so that the gun is Semi only and that the Full auto internals can not go back in the gun. To get a good idea check out these two links.

http://home.comcast.net/~tbacastow_8...iles/frame.htm

http://www.projectguns.com/vickers2.html

Here is what happens. Someone comes up with a design to make the gun semi auto and so the gun can not be converted back to full auto (within reason). He then sends the gun to the BATF and they either approve the design or not. Once he gets an approved design, the ATF writes him a letter saying that a gun build using his design would be considered a semi auto rifle and not a machine gun.

Then we build to the ATF letter's specs and so its a legal version of the gun. In this case, the sideplate has a raised edge so you can to put normal recoil plates back in. It also has a lock block. You must alter your lock to the semi auto version and make the changes so it fit in the new semi gun. You also must mill your recoil plates to fit and change them so a FA lock will no longer fit. When you get all this done, you will have a legal semi auto gun. Also check out 1919a4.com as the Browning 1919a4 is the best of the belt fed builds. I love mine!

"Does the Halo company need to do the install and "remanufacture" the gun as a non-auto?"

No, you can buy an 80% complete sideplate through the mail. Finish the last 20% of the machine work (drilling holes in the right location... mostly) and you have a legal rifle. Or you can buy it with all the work done and ready to install. But this must go through an FFL. Most people like the 80% plates.

"If so, I'm guessing only a side plate made by Halo is legal?"
Yes and he should have an ATF letter saying so. As long as only 80% of the work is done... its not even considered a gun.

"What is done to the gun to render it semi-auto, (alter the feedblock), and does this have to be done by Halo?"
Details are above and on the website. Its easier to understand the process at 1919a4.com on a Browning 1919a4

http://1919a4.com/tutorials/

"Is "paperwork" or a registered sideplate really worth $6 - 7K?"
Well you can no longer register a machine gun in the US (since 1986). What you are buying is a sideplate that is already registered. Is it worth it.... well I got about $1K in my MG08/15 parts kit. So adding another $6K to get it working will give me a $10K legal Full auto gun for about $7K... so yes it can be.

"I would think guys would have a Class III gunsmith render fully-auto aircraft guns into semi-auto guns as I don't know anyone that shoots aircraft guns, they simply want them as relics."
Those guns are worth about $8-10K each! A semi would not be worth more then I think $4k. It would be better to get one of these (link below) and sell the legal machine gun.

http://www.repligun.com/Spandeau/Spandeau.html#Anchor

There will be no more legal machine guns produced in this country so the prices on legal machine guns is going through the roof. You would never, I mean never, what do alter a FA gun. You can also buy dummy guns made from parts kits like these:

http://www.ima-usa.com/index.php/cPa...5685d757f48146

"I'm guessing one would have to write to ATF to get permission to convert an F-A into a S-A and would have to be a Class III manufactuer?"
I do not think anyone has ever done this. I am not sure what the process would be.... other then not to do it. Basically the idea of semi guns like this is for the "poor" gun owner that wants a machine gun but does not have $10-80K to dump into a legal machine gun. I did my 1919a4 for about $700. A legal FA would run about $20K. Here is a picture of my legal SA Browning 1919a4 that I built myself. I ordered an 80% side plate in the mail. I drilled all the rivet holes and riveted on myself. I sent the internals away to be machined for a semi trigger and sear and other SA mods.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/phiteshe...ripodfront.JPG

"Sorry for all the questions, but I find this very interesting."
Its no problem, I am more then happy that I can help you with something after all the help you have given me. This is a new big area for us that can not afford machine guns. Semi auto is better then nothing!

"Yes, you would have to fit a MG tirgger and grip assembly, and a butt stock is nice as well, and then you can shoot it. I have a gun set up like that and fire it regularly."

My plan is to make myself up a tripod to put the gun on. I have not decided how to go about firing the gun. I figure the pistol grip will do for now.

Matt

Last edited by IMBLITZVT; 9 March 2007 at 05:18 AM.
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