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Old 7 May 2003, 12:14 PM   #1
BobE
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I'm reading René Fonck's book "Ace of Aces". In Chapter 23, "A Black Day" he says " But an enemy newspaper deprived us of even this hope. It published, along with the name of the victor, Captain Wissemann news of the death of our national hero."

I thought no one knew how Guynemer died. Who is Captain Wissemann?

Bob E
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Old 7 May 2003, 01:21 PM   #2
Barker
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Lots say ack-ack.

What do the silverbacks say?
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"A King may move a man, a father may claim a son,
but remember that even when those who move you be Kings,
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When you stand before God, you cannot say,
"But I was told by others to do thus."
Or that,
"Virtue was not convenient at the time."

This will not suffice.."

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Old 8 May 2003, 04:17 AM   #3
BobE
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We seem to be alone, Barker. The silence is deafening. Could it be that anti-French feeling has extended to a boycott of any questions involving Frenchmen?
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Old 8 May 2003, 06:07 AM   #4
Rick
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Ltn.d.R. Kurt Wissemann, Pilot:

FlgSch * * * * * * * * *Mar16 - * *Sep16
AFP 13 * * * * * * * * *Sep16 - 25Sep16
FFA 31 * * * * * * * 25Sep16 -
FA 250(A) * * * * * * * * * * * *- 30Apr17 *WIA
JsSch I * * * * * * * * *May17 - 28May17
Jasta 3 * * * * * * * 28May17 - 28Sep17 KIA Westroosebeke

Wissemann was credited by the Germans for downing Guynemer. *There is still some controversy about this. *He was credited with 5 victories, total. Check the German Aces section here on the Aerodrome, last page, for more details. R.
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Old 8 May 2003, 06:41 AM   #5
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I have a sneaking suspicion that if Udet's guns hadn't jammed, he would have skinned the frog early in his career.
 
Old 8 May 2003, 07:23 AM   #6
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BobE: There has been recently another thread about Wissemann.
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Old 8 May 2003, 09:38 AM   #7
Soderbaum
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Hi

The Lt von Wissmann who was wounded on 30 Apr 1917, was an observer in FA 19 according to my notes...?

I do think that he was another person, than "the" Lt dR Kurt Wissemann serving in Jasta 3..
But there is a possibility that Kurt served within FAA 250, but I dont have notes that he actually served there...

8)
Gunnar
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Old 8 May 2003, 03:40 PM   #8
Barker
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Quote:
I have a sneaking suspicion that if Udet's guns hadn't jammed, he would have skinned the frog early in his career.
waaaaaaaaaugh!
I yam a HUGE fan of Ernst's but I think the happy skirt chaser was lucky to get away with his life that day - let alone, hang out later in dives doing cartoons of his pals.

are you kidding me?
Ernst copp coups on Georges?

NOT-happening.
Not that day, anyhoo.

"He flew so high he never came down."

At least that's what French school children said. 8)
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"A King may move a man, a father may claim a son,
but remember that even when those who move you be Kings,
or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone.
When you stand before God, you cannot say,
"But I was told by others to do thus."
Or that,
"Virtue was not convenient at the time."

This will not suffice.."

-Baldwin Four of The Baldwin Piano Company
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Old 8 May 2003, 11:50 PM   #9
Marco_Sommerau
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Gunnar: I think I can help you with that: Do not search for any Wissemann as observer in any FA. The whole thing about Fonck shooting-down Wissemann is certainly false, a fabrication of French propaganda and I can prove it:

In the interview made to Jean Daçay (La Guerre Aérienne No 64) Fonck declared having shot-down Wissemann’s machine: “Among the remains lay the body of the pilot, killed by a shot in the head. He was a Captain, without any papers or identification, but showing new-looking stars, proof of a recent promotion. The observer, also a Captain, was found a few hundreds of metres of the wreckage, with 3 shots in his chest (…). Short afterwards, a German communiqué informed that Lt Wissemann, recently promoted to Captain after his victory over Guynemer, had been declared missing on September 30. But this victory (Fonck’s one over the Rumpler) was our only victory that day (sic) ”. In “La Guerre Aérienne” No 65 he includes a photo of the wreckage of his victim. The caption under the photo reads: “The wreckage of Guynemer’s victor. On September 20, 1917 Fonck shot-down Lt Wisseman, Guynemer’s victor, inside our lines. This photo, borrowed by the As himself (Fonck), shows the remains of the Hun on display in the Jean-Bart place in Dunkirk”

The second photo is a better photo I found of the same wreckage. It is Maybach-powered Rumpler CIV 6787/16. The panel over the remains reads: “Rumpler aircraft having flown over Dunkirk and shot-down by the French aviation on September 30 (1917).

All this confirms that Fonck really shot-down this Rumpler CIV 6787/16. And checking the losses of that day, the only possible victims are the Lt. D. R. Karl Schumm and Hptm. Albert Hans Speer of FA 18, the only German loss in the area that day but also a crew composed of 2 officers. Their mission seemed to be a long-range reconnaissance mission to the Boulogne area.

I hope this helps to solve the puzzle.


Regards,
Marco
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Old 9 May 2003, 06:02 AM   #10
BobE
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Thanks guys. Great stuff as usual and timely. It adds a lot of depth to my reading of the book. Really appreciate it.

Bob E
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