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Old 8 February 2003, 07:26 AM   #1
willycoppens
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Hello,
This topic has probably been well discussed before, but I am curious about something in this regard.
I understand the concept, that a model in 1/72 scale, for example, when viewed from so many inches, equals looking at the real thing from so many feet. To be exact, the paint should be lightened by 10% in 1/48 scale, and 25% in 1/72 scale.
In the real world, has anybody really noticed any difference in using scale effect ?
Thanks to all, willy
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Old 8 February 2003, 08:23 AM   #2
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Scale effect, as applied to colour, is based on the idea of atmospheric perspective. Where I do have doubts is in whether there is any appreciable effect over such a short distance as 100 metres for 1/72, *and less for larger scales, to which a typical viewing distance of three feet or so corresponds. *I most definitely have a problem with the fashion for accentuating panel lines. We have much to learn from figure modelers and *armour modellers about light and shade, but the "Verlindenisation" of many aircraft models' particularly competition entries, has gone too far IMO. For decades we moaned and groaned about over scale panel lines, then, as soon as the manfacturers begin to get it right, out comes the scriber to be followed by the over enthusiastic application of "pre-shading" or some such heresy. Harrumph!!

On balance I think scale effect executed with subtelty does work and is of particular value in diorama work. Of course once you accept scale effect is valid you need never again buy "authentic" paint, at least that's my excuse.
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Old 8 February 2003, 10:12 AM   #3
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This is summary scale effect:

Add white paint until the color disappears.
Then you have the effect you seek:
A color everyone can agree on. Except the judges who are really into cool, warm and off-whites.

There's also scale effect on off-whites, so Appliance White is probably the thing. Tungsten lighting.
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Old 8 February 2003, 10:57 AM   #4
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Quote:
Hello,
* *This topic has probably been well discussed before, but I am curious about something in this regard.
* * I understand the concept, that a model in 1/72 scale, for example, when viewed from so many inches, equals looking at the real thing from so many feet. To be *exact, the paint should be lightened by 10% in 1/48 scale, and 25% in 1/72 scale.
* * *In the real world, has anybody really noticed any difference in using scale effect ?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * Thanks to all, willy
But I have noticed that some formulaic attmepts to achieve scale effect don't work as they should. For example, Neutral Grey/Olive Drab of WW2 American a/c. The actual neutral grey was actually very dark, if you see the restored a/c or old color photos. At a distance, there is often very little contrast in some lighting conditions. Granted, the actual colors on a model would probably BOTH be WAY TOO DARK. But lightening neutral grey to the recommended extent seems to make it too light for scale effect. Some things I have also noticed include:
1.Actual a/c with multicolor camo schemes often appear to have less color contrast than most models I see at contests
2. panel lines, joint lines, external stiffeners, etc. are often not visible on actual a/c at any distance to speak of, unless the lighting accentuates them.
A good example of this are the lap-joints of old Grumman a/c, very visible in a 3/4 astern view w/ light casting a shadow, but much less so otherwise.
3. Large scale shipmodelers are now replicating plate butts and seams. Same as above, often not visible but under certain conditions; at a scale viewing distance, not at all. Last year saw SS Kewatin in Michigan. Big, thick hull plates, in-out plate strakes, w/flush butts forward, but lap-joints aft. I was amazed how smooth the hull looked until up fairly close.
4. WW1 a/c with props painted to depict laminated, varnished props. Some photos show conspicuous laminations up close, but not at 100yds away. SOme props were solid wood. Some were clear-varnished, others with a dark-grey primer. If the tips were sheathed in brass, this was usually primed grey.
Just look at the photos! SOmewhere I read something, I think an old WW1 Aero journal, that contained specs for finished props. I wish I could find it again.
5. Very dismayed at the "Verlindenization" of the presentation of a/c and ship models. I can't honestly say I have ever seen anything REAL that exhibits these visual characteristics.
 
Old 8 February 2003, 01:36 PM   #5
NeilE
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Hi Willy Et Al

I think scale effect is a bit of a big myth. A few weeks back Ross Moorhouse (Hi Ross) and myself spent an afternoon out at Bankstown Aero Museum in Sydney. We were discussing this very thing.

Looking at various aircraft parked around waiting for restoration, a number of things were apparent.

1) There is a lot of variation in how panel lines appear on some aircraft. For example on some, a relatively flat seam appears raised at a short distance, others disappear, whilst others again look like trenches - and this is on one aircraft (A Canberra if I recall). Certainly none of them looked "Verlindenised" at all. This was basically true of all the aircraft there and the newer the paint job, the less they showed.

2) The idea that you lighten paint to replicate a scale distance visual affect just doesn't appear to be consistently correct IMHO. There are the appearance of colour changes but maybe not always what you expect. A dark olive drab colour observed from a few feet away can appear lighter and the colour more precise closer up, but when viewed at a distance looks a darker more indistinct shape and colour. The metallic finished Canberra looked a metallic grey from a distance than a purely metal (fading and weathering also can strongly influence how an aircraft looks close up and at a distance - the Canberra was quite weathered)

3) Colours and contrasts become indistinct with age and wear, and I think too the intention of is often to create an indistinct image rather than bright contrasts. Look at German Purple/Green camo. Many go for a wildly bright purple that is somewhat ridiculous IMHO. Use a darker purple towards the red end of the scale and you get a darker less contrasting scheme that would be more camoflagng than not.

I guess the rule of thumb here is that there is no rule of thumb about colours and appearance. I would rather look at the real thing or photographs and base my judgements on that than some verlinden inspired rule.

Personally I think Verlinden's effects often create caricatures, both in figures and other modelling. I find their broad acceptance boring and also as a failure of imagination by the modeler overusing them(sorry I'm feeling a bit grumpy this morning - must get down the shops for some fags).

All the Best

Neil
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Old 8 February 2003, 01:39 PM   #6
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and "Verlindenization," IMHO, are really obverse and reverse of the same counterfit coin. It started as a way to grab the viewer's/contest judges' attention; many thought it "looked cool," copied it, an now it's taken on a life of it's own: "Nice paint job; too bad the builder didn't BOTHER to pre-shade the panel lines." Does anyone remember when M. Verlinden threw bits of camo netting over every armor model he built? Look at period photos of real armor, and judge for yourself how common THAT was. '73's, Rob
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Old 8 February 2003, 05:09 PM   #7
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A good friend was a crew chief on C-5's. We usually make an annual pilgrimage to the AF Museum at Wright-Pat. Also check out the IPMS contests. He loves to rant about the Interpretation and presentation of the model a/c. His pet peeve is the depiction of leaking hydraulic oil from access panels w/no hydraulic lines behind them. He theorizes one of the reasons modelers highlight, darken, and weather access panels is because they would seal them with rtv sealant on the real thing. He thinks modelers may have seen this effect and misinterpreted it. He also said they would never have been allowed to do such a shoddy job on the real a/c, however. He claims most of the modern aircraft that show weathering would have earned him some disciplinary action back when he was in.
We also like to complain how the Verlinden school of figure painting can take a 3D human figure and give it the visual appearnace of a 2D painting. They actually look like bad cartoons to me. The only time I personally do anykind of highlighting is when I do clear-doped linen. I did a little on my Bristol scout and Nie 11. I depicted extremely weather examples, and highlighted the frame members with some graphite and some reddish pastel. The Nie 11 looks a little overdone, but the Scout C, number 1250, does look quite like the photos of her. I just got the datafiles of the Sopwith Baby and Schneider. It was amazing how weathered the CDL becomes. Of more interest is the appearance of pristine CDL as shown on some a/c in the factory. I can't believe how glossy and reflective it appears. The rib tapes appear to be a completely different color, almost white. I am sure some of this is purely because of its light color combined with some harsh lighting.
 
Old 8 February 2003, 05:15 PM   #8
StephenLawson
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Pleas allow me this thought. Consider the thread titled The Psychology of Modeling 201... f. Next comes the concern of overall scale effect in the build. (One can get dangerously close to the onset of serious AMS here.)
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Old 8 February 2003, 10:52 PM   #9
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Stephen;

I take your point re drawing the eye and attentiion getting but this is often taken way too far. What I tend to do is to look at as many photos of the aircraft type concerned and then get a few as to what weathering is likely and probable and then work from there.

The idea of "A seam line - gotta shade it!" is too mechanistic and populist really - yes the model looks attractive (well sometimes) but this not always the point.

My father was on Sunderland Flying Boats during WW2 and I know his photo album very well. From time to time I come across Sunderland models at exhibitions and what not and more often than not the modelers have got the weathering all wrong. Sunderlands were generally filthy aircraft (except when royalty visited My Dad says) but what I see more often then not is just plain wrong - rivets sanded off (when they wer covered in 'em), rescribed panels lines nicely washed and a bit of grime here and there but often not in the right places and the wrong type of weathering (like depicted with oil leaks from the engines when the engines were always kept in pristine condition).

I'm going on a bit here but one can avoid formulaic weathering with a little simple research. This is not AMS - it is a counter to AMS I think.

As modelers we employ a range of artifices to enhance our work and this is okay. However I think these artifices need to be reflexive to the needs of the model and not employed because they can be.

I notice that your own models tend to use such effects very subtly - which is why they are so damm good!

All the Best

Neil
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Old 9 February 2003, 02:11 AM   #10
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If you are into pre-mixed colors supposedly matching specific standards, the lightening for color scale effects has some relevance. When speaking of WWI, the term "Standard" has little relevance. Very few usable, exact standards exist any more, not that there was all that much standardization to begin with.

Since I mix my own colors, the issue sort of disappears because I mix and adjust to suit the model . I play with it until "it looks good to me".

I agree with Neil and others that incorrect shading and weathering looks worse, or at least as bad as none at all. I have adopted the policy of only simulating weathering that I have photo evidence of.

Extra work to shade and weather everything is definitely AMS gone crazy. Taking the time to really look at the photos and then doing the extra steps required to replicate the actual effects is AMS effectively harnessed and pulling the cart in the right direction.

I see nothing wrong with stylistic effects , especially those that accentuate a design feature characteristic of the machine. These models are more models of the general type as opposed to models of a specific airframe.

One is an artist's interpretation and the other a specific replica. Both are fun to make and fun to view.

Oh, and while I'm rattling, someone mentioned that many times the visibility of panel lines and weathering is controlled by the lighting conditions when the photo was taken. There is one instance when scale effects on colors, shading and weathering is critical to to the success of the piece. That is in a shadow box diorama where the lighting and viewing angle are tightly controlled. These techniques can be employed to enhance the perspective effect you are aiming for.

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