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Art Topics related to WWI aviation artists, art, aircraft profiles, 3D rendering, etc.

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Old 6 October 2009, 03:53 PM   #1
fokkerdvII
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Red Baron's signature

This is my MVR signature replica, i've drawn it throw some others collected (its my first), and i'd like to know what means the first word before the v.Richthofen, if someone knows please post, and post some other signatures plz.
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Old 6 October 2009, 11:51 PM   #2
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I'm not 100% sure but I bet it says something like "Freiherr". You might try posting this question in the "Memorabilia" section of the forum.

Speaking of MvR's signature...have you guys seen what that loser Ivan Berryman has done to a supposedly "authentic" signature?

I think it's LAME and a complete waste of history...especially when done by a hack.




I just think it's tacky..and I'm really starting to wonder how one guy can paint so much crap.
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Old 7 October 2009, 12:07 AM   #3
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Mate,
Not awake yet but I believe it is "Freiherr" meaning Baron. (I think) In other words Rittmeister Manfred Albrecht Freiherr Von Richthofen - hell of a long name, you could get writers cramps writing that out 100 times.

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Old 7 October 2009, 01:13 AM   #4
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Just realized it says "Frhr." Short for "Freiherr".

I'm curious...why would you want to forge MvR's signature anyway?
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Old 7 October 2009, 07:43 AM   #5
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As others have noted the signature has an abbreviation of Freiherr on it (which equates to Baron in ranks of the nobility, although in the grand scheme of toffs, it's actually a fairly low rank). The literal translation of Freiherr is of course 'free man', although the title Freiherr is perhaps more properly translated as 'Free Lord', since it was a title bestowed by the Holy Roman Empire upon members of the nobility and related to the lands that would be granted with such a title.

Historically, those kind of titles were usually handed out for service to the crown, for things such as going off on Crusades to the Holy Land to fight the Saracens and coming back with a bunch of loot for the Emperor, or fighting in battles to support the empire. So somewhere down the line, one of MVR's ancestors probably did something of that nature, although it could also have been granted for some kind of civil service too. But more often, such titles were granted literally 'on the battlefield' at the end of a day's fighting, usually to the soldier who had done the best service that day, and since the Richthofen's had a bit of a military tradition, it seems likely that is where MVR's title originally came from.

Traditionally, granting such titles would have been done in quite a cool way too, with the king or Emperor taking the soldier's pennant after a battle and hacking the tails off it with his sword, thus turning a pennant which had tails into a full blown banner (making it a regular flag without tails), those type of banners without tails being reserved for nobles. So the act of cutting off the tails, leaving a ragged edge would be a visible sign of such a title being bestowed. You can still see a ceremonial version of this kind of thing today, when a King of Queen grants a knighthood by touching the recipient's shoulders with a sword, which is a symbolic version of that battlefield ceremony.

The 'Free Lord' bit of the title Freiherr refers to the fact that the land which came with such a title would be granted without any constraints with regard to taxes upon it being collected for the crown, so as a Freiherr, you would literally be a Lord who was free to do with the land as you liked, although that would usually mean gathering rents from tenants living on the estates for your own income.

Al
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Old 7 October 2009, 07:59 AM   #6
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On a related note mentioned by Tim, I just had a look at Ivan Berryman's site - i.e the guy who did a sketch on that original autographed MVR paper - and all I can say is, what on earth does he think he's playing at vandalising historic documents in that way? It's an appalling thing to do.

Granted his paintings and sketches are not bad, although I did spot a few mistakes on some of them (his painting Edward Mannock's SE5a has an Aldis Sight on it for example - Mannock was a strong advocate of removing them and using open iron sights). But whether good, bad or historically inaccurate, I think it's truly awful that he's doing that sort of thing to irreplaceable documentation. I certainly hope he doesn't continue to do so. What's next, is he going to spray paint a Dr1 on MVR's tombstone and try to sell that?

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Old 7 October 2009, 08:46 AM   #7
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....cough ...art farm... cough

Al-

There is somewhat of a back story to my opinion of Berryman's "art" AND! to this day I get a little pissed about it. Lol, not very reserved on my part but it pleases me that the truth ...err my "opinion" is out there

There is no other artist on this planet, whose "entire" body of work...which is insanely huge...that one can find "many" similarities to the works of real artists.

Here is but one case, decide for yourself....



On the top Berryman...on the bottom the "original" by Roy Grinnell. Granted I flipped the top image to match the view but thats it. Pretty damn close in my eyes. Also, "tracing" photos and calling it a original....by a "master" is a JOKE!

Granted the details are crisp but looks CG to me..ie... cg print to canvas

And as you noticed, there are many factual errors to his "master" works. Lol, ones that most newbs would catch even.

So, yeah add to that, this disgusting MvR piece and it "Grinds My Gears" a bit

If the guy really cared about preserving history...he would not have done that. It's sad to see, whether one likes his work or not.

Btw...has anyone in the UK ever seen any of his originals? Just wondering..they never seem to be for sale.
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Old 7 October 2009, 10:03 AM   #8
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That example you posted does look suspiciously similar to the other pic, but I suppose you have to say a SPAD looks like a SPAD and give him the benefit of the doubt, in spite of it certainly looking a bit fishy. However, what is not in doubt is that there are inaccuracies on his pics, and from a quick look at his stuff, the composition is not always very good either in my opinion either, which, having spent four years studying art and design, I think I'm at least somewhat qualified to have an informed opinion on. That is nevertheless just my opinion of course, and if people like his stuff and want to buy it, good luck to them, but regardless of that, I would like to think that anyone with a true interest in WW1 history would be horrified at the notion of someone having scribbled on an original MVR signature, either artistically or otherwise.

It's another interesting point you raise with regard to whether using CG stuff as inspiration of pose assistance for paintings is 'cheating' or not, and whether the 'paintings' are not actually paintings at all in the strictest sense. Personally I regard using such aids for composition as no worse than using an artist's pose mannequin for figure drawing, or a scale model to help you suss out how things will look, although there is no doubt a lot of the skill and artistry goes out of the window when such methods are overused. A painting is not meant to be a photograph, and millimetric accuracy is not so important as feeling and composition when it comes to painting, so all the CG in the world will not imbue that into a work of art, and is no substitute for artistic ability or simple drawing skill. That said, I am not opposed to anybody using CG in any way they like, far from it, since it is in fact part of my job to train people on many of the software packages used for that kind of work, but if you want to capture a mood, then a paint brush and a good eye still takes some beating, and if CG stuff is being passed off as paintings, then that too is questionable in my opinion, at least from the standpoint of honestly representing what it is you are selling if you claim it to be something more than a tarted up CG image.

These opinions aside, there would have been nothing wrong with the guy framing a sketch of a Dr1 with that autograph also in the frame, and nothing wrong with him using a computer generated image to assist him in creating such a sketch, but to actually draw on the original piece of paper which bore the signature itself is bordering on criminal vandalism in my opinion, and he ought to be ashamed of himself for having done so. I actually have quite a few historic aviation artifacts in my possession, but where things like that are concerned, one should always remember that one is simply the custodian of such things, and when we are pushing up daisies, such artifacts should still be around in their original condition for historians to study, so I personally feel that it is not our right to mess around with them despite the fact that we might be their present owner, and whatever our opinions of his artwork, you are right to be appalled by him having done such as thing, as indeed am I.

Al
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Old 7 October 2009, 12:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chock View Post
That example you posted does look suspiciously similar to the other pic, but I suppose you have to say a SPAD looks like a SPAD and give him the benefit of the doubt, in spite of it certainly looking a bit fishy. However, what is not in doubt is that there are inaccuracies on his pics, and from a quick look at his stuff, the composition is not always very good either in my opinion either, which, having spent four years studying art and design, I think I'm at least somewhat qualified to have an informed opinion on. That is nevertheless just my opinion of course, and if people like his stuff and want to buy it, good luck to them, but regardless of that, I would like to think that anyone with a true interest in WW1 history would be horrified at the notion of someone having scribbled on an original MVR signature, either artistically or otherwise.
A spad is a spad and indeed that was the conclusion, it was their tact or lack there of it about it all that really showed though in the end. This was again shown with this MvR piece. That's fine...but I will continue to call a spade..a spade

And your right any one with a true interest would be horrified...which makes me wonder then, who is buying this stuff. WWI aero art is pretty niche so people spending thousands on a piece would not buy such works containing so many obvious errors.

Please...read the following:

Aircraft of Jasta 10 prepare to taxi out for a dawn patrol, led by the fearless Leutnant Werner Voss in his Fokker F1 103/17 in September 1917. Arguments still rage concerning the colour of the engine cowling on his Triplane. Certainly, when the aircraft was delivered, its upper surfaces were painted factory finish streaked green and, it is recorded that it was flown as delivered with Voss personal mechanic noting that no extra painting was undertaken, aside from Voss Japanese kite face which occupied the nose. However, research shows that by the time of Voss death on 23rd September 1917, after his epic battle with SE5s of 56 Sqn, the cowling was probably yellow in keeping with all Jasta 10 aircraft. Renowned by pilots from both sides for his bravery and extraordinary abilities with his diminutive Triplane, the young ace scored a total of 48 confirmed victories before being brought down by Lieutenant Rhys Davids on the very day that he was due to go on leave. The Fokker F1 differed from the production DR.1 in detail only, Voss machine being fitted with a captured 110hp Le Rhone engine, his aircraft not being fitted with the outer wing skids common to the DR.1....


lol, reads like a bumper for Dog Fights ;-)

Now have a look...



Notice the 2 DR.Is accompanying the fearless Voss? Funny, as there were no DR.Is at this time and that is most certainly not a FI in the picture.

AND where is this research stating the cowl was yellow? AND note the cowl in the pic is GREEN!!

The ailerons are wrong, the cowling is wrong. ..ect..

You dont need to have a art degree to see these errors in research and execution. Especially from one who proclaims to be a master.

What ever, people..please go buy Ivans art.

And speaking of the DR.I...every one he has done ..is wrong in one way or another. And in a different way each time..like they really look like they were done by different people...which leads to my next "personal observation".

I swear every time I visit his site the number of WWI pieces grows at a surprisingly fast rate....as well as the 12 or so other genres he does. The guy's a animal! All the best chief!


Quote:
It's another interesting point you raise with regard to whether using CG stuff as inspiration of pose assistance for paintings is 'cheating' or not, and whether the 'paintings' are not actually paintings at all in the strictest sense. Personally I regard using such aids for composition as no worse than using an artist's pose mannequin for figure drawing, or a scale model to help you suss out how things will look, although there is no doubt a lot of the skill and artistry goes out of the window when such methods are overused. A painting is not meant to be a photograph, and millimetric accuracy is not so important as feeling and composition when it comes to painting, so all the CG in the world will not imbue that into a work of art, and is no substitute for artistic ability or simple drawing skill. That said, I am not opposed to anybody using CG in any way they like, far from it, since it is in fact part of my job to train people on many of the software packages used for that kind of work, but if you want to capture a mood, then a paint brush and a good eye still takes some beating, and if CG stuff is being passed off as paintings, then that too is questionable in my opinion, at least from the standpoint of honestly representing what it is you are selling if you claim it to be something more than a tarted up CG image.
Firstly we will disagree about the warmth and feel of CG vs traditional but we like what we like Not to mention CG is a lot more than simply pushing magic buttons.

I do agree that using comp aides or a photo as a reference is perfectly fine. Why not? Makes perfect sense. Not cheating in my view either. And I definitely agree that passing off CG canvas prints as paints "is" cheating. In regards to berrymans work, in my opinion it looks like a CG to canvas print, which you can then paint on top of with real paint...

Again, just my observations of his works.

Oh..I like how you said "A painting is not meant to be a photograph, and millimetric accuracy is not so important as feeling and composition when it comes to painting,"

...look familiar?



Again if people are fooled that is a original piece of art...then they deserve to be parted with their money.

Hell I could even repaint a picture


Quote:
These opinions aside, there would have been nothing wrong with the guy framing a sketch of a Dr1 with that autograph also in the frame, and nothing wrong with him using a computer generated image to assist him in creating such a sketch, but to actually draw on the original piece of paper which bore the signature itself is bordering on criminal vandalism in my opinion, and he ought to be ashamed of himself for having done so. I actually have quite a few historic aviation artifacts in my possession, but where things like that are concerned, one should always remember that one is simply the custodian of such things, and when we are pushing up daisies, such artifacts should still be around in their original condition for historians to study, so I personally feel that it is not our right to mess around with them despite the fact that we might be their present owner, and whatever our opinions of his artwork, you are right to be appalled by him having done such as thing, as indeed am I.

Al
I could not agree with you more. I understand selling out but this goes far beyond that.
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Old 8 October 2009, 01:55 AM   #10
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A spad is a spad and indeed that was the conclusion, it was their tact or lack there of it about it all that really showed though in the end. This was again shown with this MvR piece. That's fine...but I will continue to call a spade..a spade

And your right any one with a true interest would be horrified...which makes me wonder then, who is buying this stuff. WWI aero art is pretty niche so people spending thousands on a piece would not buy such works containing so many obvious errors.

Please...read the following:

Aircraft of Jasta 10 prepare to taxi out for a dawn patrol, led by the fearless Leutnant Werner Voss in his Fokker F1 103/17 in September 1917. Arguments still rage concerning the colour of the engine cowling on his Triplane. Certainly, when the aircraft was delivered, its upper surfaces were painted factory finish streaked green and, it is recorded that it was flown as delivered with Voss personal mechanic noting that no extra painting was undertaken, aside from Voss Japanese kite face which occupied the nose. However, research shows that by the time of Voss death on 23rd September 1917, after his epic battle with SE5s of 56 Sqn, the cowling was probably yellow in keeping with all Jasta 10 aircraft. Renowned by pilots from both sides for his bravery and extraordinary abilities with his diminutive Triplane, the young ace scored a total of 48 confirmed victories before being brought down by Lieutenant Rhys Davids on the very day that he was due to go on leave. The Fokker F1 differed from the production DR.1 in detail only, Voss machine being fitted with a captured 110hp Le Rhone engine, his aircraft not being fitted with the outer wing skids common to the DR.1....


lol, reads like a bumper for Dog Fights ;

Now have a look...



Notice the 2 DR.Is accompanying the fearless Voss? Funny, as there were no DR.Is at this time and that is most certainly not a FI in the picture.

AND where is this research stating the cowl was yellow? AND note the cowl in the pic is GREEN!!

The ailerons are wrong, the cowling is wrong. ..ect..

You dont need to have a art degree to see these errors in research and execution. Especially from one who proclaims to be a master.

What ever, people..please go buy Ivans art.

And speaking of the DR.I...every one he has done ..is wrong in one way or another. And in a different way each time..like they really look like they were done by different people...which leads to my next "personal observation".

I swear every time I visit his site the number of WWI pieces grows at a surprisingly fast rate....as well as the 12 or so other genres he does. The guy's a animal! All the best chief!




Firstly we will disagree about the warmth and feel of CG vs traditional but we like what we like Not to mention CG is a lot more than simply pushing magic buttons.

I do agree that using comp aides or a photo as a reference is perfectly fine. Why not? Makes perfect sense. Not cheating in my view either. And I definitely agree that passing off CG canvas prints as paints "is" cheating. In regards to berrymans work, in my opinion it looks like a CG to canvas print, which you can then paint on top of with real paint...

Again, just my observations of his works.

Oh..I like how you said "A painting is not meant to be a photograph, and millimetric accuracy is not so important as feeling and composition when it comes to painting,"

...look familiar?



Again if people are fooled that is a original piece of art...then they deserve to be parted with their money.

Hell I could even repaint a picture.




I could not agree with you more. I understand selling out but this goes far beyond that.

Mate,
That is why I did not include any of his art work in my book!

ttfn

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