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Go Back   The Aerodrome Forum > No Man's Land > Pioneer Aviation


Pioneer Aviation Topics related to the aviators and aeroplanes prior to WWI

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Old 17 October 2009, 07:07 PM   #1
aerohydro
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Breguet's Pre-1914 Challenge #130



Scoreboard at the start of Challenge #130:
23.60 Rbailey
18.20 Varese2002
15.80 aerohydro
12.20 Aquilius
8.00 richard B
7.30 matte_kudasai
7.20 Rod_Filan
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
6.00 YavorD
5.50 Airarticles
**************
(those above this section must wait 12 hours before answering,
those below - and everyone else - may answer immediately)
**************
3.30 berman
3.00 Lodzermensch
3.00 joegertler
2.00 sobrien
2.00 Doc
1.10 Froggy
1.00 paolomiana
0.40 Wind In The Wires
0.20 Willi Von Klugermann
0.20 EricGoedkoop
Subjects of previous Challenges can be found at: Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge

Quote:
The rules of engagement:

1. The thread title must be "Bréguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......".
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....).
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built.
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge.
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion).
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified.
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they belong to the ROYALTY. Once they belong to the ROYALTY they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
10. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitrator in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.
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Old 19 October 2009, 08:23 PM   #2
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This sure looks like a helicopter of some sort - with turbines at either end of a parasol monoplane.

I can't find a photo or drawing of any his inventions, but I think this may be something built by Ján Bahýľ, the inventor from Bratislava.

Bahyl was granted seventeen patents in all, and his inventions included a water pump, a flying balloon combined with an air turbine, the first petrol engine car in Slovakia (along with Anton Marschall) and a lift inside the castle hill up to the Bratislava Castle.

In 1894 he designed his combined balloon air turbine. The following year Emperor Franz Joseph granted him a patent, nr. 3392 - 13 August 1895, for a helicopter. He constructed a helicopter in 1901 that ascended to a height of 0.5 meters. In 1903 he reached 1.5 meters and on 5 May 1905 he flew using his petrol engine helicopter to a height of four meters over a distance of 1500 meters. His attempt was also supposedly recorded by the so-called International Airship Organization.

So... I'll say its the Bahyl Helicopter of 1901.
-
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Old 19 October 2009, 09:07 PM   #3
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Quote:
So... I'll say its the Bahyl Helicopter of 1901.
Well, I can tell you that it's not.



Thanks to the efforts of a scale modeler called Martin Mikulus, the rest of the world can see what the 1894 Bayhl helicopter looked like. More photos here. Quite possibly, this is the design that the 1895 patent was granted for.



Here is a photo of a helicopter rotor test-rig he built in 1895. Note the etching at the base of the model, presumably lifted off from a published account of his experiments. More photos here.



This is Martin Mikulus' model of the 1906 "Avion" design. More photos here. I *suspect* that Jan Bayhl and Bahily János are one and the same person, and that the change in the name was a reflection of the cultural-political shifts that were happening in Eastern Europe at the time. (Someone may care to correct me on that!)Cheers,
Paul

Last edited by aerohydro; 19 October 2009 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 19 October 2009, 09:36 PM   #4
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Back to the Challenge ....

Firstly, the answer can be found online. Some creative searching, and then a little bit of time spent analysing the results, will yield the solution. If you are not sure what to search for, might I suggest you look at the image afresh.

Secondly, we are looking at an American design, dating from between 1900 and 1910.

Paul

Last edited by aerohydro; 19 October 2009 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 19 October 2009, 10:42 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohydro
Well, I can tell you that it's not.
Somehow I was afraid of that.

Quote:
I *suspect* that Jan Bayhl and Bahily János are one and the same person, and that the change in the name was a reflection of the cultural-political shifts that were happening in Eastern Europe at the time.
I seem to remember seeing different spellings of his name somewhere. I'll try to find that again.

And what would we do without people like Martin Mikulus? I like his Parseval and Ae balloon models. I think I'll post a link to those up at the airshipmodeler.com forum.
-
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Old 20 October 2009, 11:39 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
I *suspect* that Jan Bayhl and Bahily János are one and the same person
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod
I seem to remember seeing different spellings of his name somewhere. I'll try to find that again.
I was wrong, it was the different spellings of the towns/cities that I found. My guess is Ján Bahýľ is Slovakian and Bahily János is Hungarian, but maybe someone will confirm that before this Challenge ends.

In the meantime I better keep looking for the ID of your Challenge pic.
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Old 20 October 2009, 12:35 PM   #7
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George F. Myers, a graduate of Worcester Polytechnic Institute (class of 1888), is credited with making one of the earliest attempts at vertical flight. A patent attorney and a prolific inventor, he held numerous aviation-related patents. His first application for a helicopter patent was denied, but the machine, dubbed the "Flying Doughnut," helped inspire later developments in vertical-horizontal flight. In 1904, Myers built a helicopter that rose six inches off the ground.

According to the book, Helicopters Before Helicopters, Myers filed a patent for a helicopter in 1897, and a prototype was built in 1904. Specified by Aerofiles, it had three lifting screws (3'4" diameter) and two laterally-placed tractor propellers (6'0" diameter), each driven by a two-cylinder engine, and probably, all its propellers were driven by this one engine.

Again, according to Aerofiles, Myers built another aircraft in the 20's which shares some of the same features as the Challenge apparatus.
Quote:
Annular c.1927 = Circle-wing concept with two light engines on outriggers with tractor props that got this tricycle-gear, cart-mounted creation rolling along the ground, as seen on a Discovery tv program, "Strange Planes, Strange Shapes," but vertical conquest, if any, was not mentioned. Three doughnut-shaped wings on top, the fuselage was an open frame with pilot in an open chair up front. An angular rudder at the tail wore its number [691].
Which corresponds with a machine mentioned by WPI.
Quote:
In 1926, two years after the first free flight of a helicopter, he built a machine that traveled 1,000 feet at an altitude of 10 feet. Myers also built and flew his own airplane six years after the Wright brothers' historic flight.
George F. Myers died at the age of 96 on April 5, 1961 in Jackson Heights, N.Y.

Conclusion: Challenge #130 is the prototype helicopter, the Myers Flying Doughnut of 1904.

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Old 20 October 2009, 09:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Conclusion: Challenge #130 is the prototype helicopter, the Myers Flying Doughnut of 1904.
Umm, no!

Wrong designer. Wrong machine. However, you did get the year correct!
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Old 20 October 2009, 09:32 PM   #9
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Time to recap:
  • It's an American flying machine
  • It dates from 1904
And to supply some more clues:
  • The design (or at least a variant of it) was patented, but not in 1904
  • It's not listed anywhere within www.aerofiles.com, so don't bother looking there.
This machine is quite findable by doing an appropriate online search. You don't need a large library of books or periodicals to delve into.

More clues tomorrow!

Paul

Last edited by aerohydro; 20 October 2009 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 20 October 2009, 09:43 PM   #10
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Oh boy... back to the drawing board.

You do know that if Kees gets back and we're still stuck on this thing it'll be pretty embarrassing don't you?.

-
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Last edited by Rod_Filan; 21 October 2009 at 09:39 PM. Reason: spelling
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