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Go Back   The Aerodrome Forum > No Man's Land > Pioneer Aviation


Pioneer Aviation Topics related to the aviators and aeroplanes prior to WWI

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Old 21 November 2009, 05:17 PM   #1
aerohydro
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Breguet's pre-1914 ID Challenge #142



I like multiplanes, hence the reason for my selecting this particular machine. I know relatively little about it, however, but would like to know more.

The scoreboard at the start of Challenge #142:
23.60 Rbailey
18.20 Varese2002
17.80 aerohydro
14.20 Aquilius
9.20 Rod_Filan
8.50 richard B
7.30 matte_kudasai
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
6.00 YavorD
5.50 Airarticles
**************
(those above this section must wait 12 hours before answering,
those below - and everyone else - may answer immediately)
**************
3.50 Lodzermensch
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
3.00 sobrien
2.00 Doc
2.00 sodium
1.10 Froggy
1.00 paolomiana
0.40 Wind In The Wires
0.20 Willi Von Klugermann
0.20 EricGoedkoop
Previous challenges: Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge

The rules of engagement:
Quote:
1. The thread title must be "Bréguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......".
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....).
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built.
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge.
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion).
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified.
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they belong to the ROYALTY. Once they belong to the ROYALTY they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
10. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitrator in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet

Last edited by aerohydro; 21 November 2009 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 22 November 2009, 05:17 AM   #2
Rbailey
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The Italian Robiola Multiplano of 1913 - called idromultiplano in one source. The "undercarriage" is distinctive. Powered by two 80hp Gnomes driving 2 propellers not easily visible in this side view.

I will post a couple of other views after breakfast.

Last edited by Rbailey; 22 November 2009 at 05:42 AM.
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Old 22 November 2009, 07:07 AM   #3
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The first picture here is identified as the Attilio Robiola multiplane under test in 1913 at Mirafiori. The second is a design published by Robiola in 1909. The third drawing is the twin-engine design that looks a lot like the challenge picture, but not the 1913 version, so ignore my dating above.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Robiola.jpg (37.5 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg robiola2.jpg (42.9 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Robiola3.jpg (26.7 KB, 9 views)
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Old 22 November 2009, 08:37 PM   #4
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Full marks to Ron, for being first off the mark. This indeed is the 1913 Robiola Idromultiplano (or hydromultiplane). Though it's also referred to as just a multiplano, I've seen the idromultiplano reference used often enough to believe that should be its full description. This monstrosity was the brainchild of Dr Attilio Robiola, and was built at Turin between 1912 and 1913. When tested at the local Mirafiori aerodrome in November 1913, it failed to fly.

Taking the original Challenge photo plus some of Ron's attachments, and grouping the images together, should give you an idea as to the machine's layout.







The bottom photo shows the plane from the rear. The sets of wings are laid out in a V shaped arrangement, with the engine and pusher propeller located within the V. The wings seem to be simple flat vanes, and are attached to the framework at mid-chord. Some, possibly all, of the vanes can have their angle of incidence adjusted, for control purposes, if for nothing else.

The image used for this Challenge appeared in "Pionieri dell'aviazione in Italia" by Mario Cobianchi (1943), and it was also published last year in the quarterly "Ali Antiche", which is put out by the Italian aviation history organisation, GAVS.

Ron's images, etc, come from the English/Italian book "Origini Dell'Aviazione in Italia" / "Origin of Aviation in Italy" by Piero Vergnano. It's this publication that specifies the idromultiplano as having two Gnome engines, but I suspect Vergnano was in error here. The drawing - and the photos, as far as I can tell - seem to indicate just one engine being used. And, in the book, the text refers to Robiola as having been lent two 80hp Gnome engines, which is quite different to him using two engines.

Some other details:
Length: 9 meters
Wing Area: 71 square meters
Weight: 900 kilograms
If anyone can contribute more information, then please do!

Cheers,
Paul

Last edited by aerohydro; 22 November 2009 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 22 November 2009, 08:47 PM   #5
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Answer to this Challenge: the 1913 Robiola Idromultiplano

The scoreboard at the start of Challenge #142:
24.60 Rbailey
18.20 Varese2002
17.80 aerohydro
14.20 Aquilius
9.20 Rod_Filan
8.50 richard B
7.30 matte_kudasai
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
6.00 YavorD
5.50 Airarticles
**************
(those above this section must wait 12 hours before answering,
those below - and everyone else - may answer immediately)
**************
3.50 Lodzermensch
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
3.00 sobrien
2.00 Doc
2.00 sodium
1.10 Froggy
1.00 paolomiana
0.40 Wind In The Wires
0.20 Willi Von Klugermann
0.20 EricGoedkoop
The baton is now passed onto Ron.

Last edited by aerohydro; 22 November 2009 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 24 November 2009, 01:22 AM   #6
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Attilio Robiola patented his controlling device in 1909 (in Germany) and got a patent accepted on February 29, 1912 in the United Kindom. It is patent 1910-27876 (in those times the UK numbered pro year, so the patent application was in 1910).

The title of the patent is very broad 'Improved controlling device applicable to Air-ships and submarine boats'

Claim No.3 gives the ideas Robiola had with his construction

Quote:
3. An aeroplane provided with a device of the type referred to, wherein the small pivoted planes besides effecting the upward and downward motions of the machine owing to their inclination to the horizontal, also enabling the machine to travel in a horizontal plane, this horizontal travel of the machine being effected by simultanuously turning the small planes into the vertical position in which they become effective for raising and lowering the machine, so that the latter, being constantly driven forward at a suitable speed, is now sustained in the air by the pressur of the air acting upon an upper horizontal continuous plane only arranged above the said small planes, thereby increasing the stability as the machine becomes suspended in the matter of a pendulum, the small planes in their vertical position offering little resistence to motion in a horizontal plane owing to their small size.
This part of the patent drawings visualize the ideas of Robiola



Kees
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Old 24 November 2009, 02:06 AM   #7
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Newsflashes in Flight on Robiola

- January 3, 1914

An Italian Stability Machine
From Turin comes a statement that Dr. Robiola has invented an automatically stable aeroplane, which is shortly to be tried at the Mirafiori Aerodrome. It is said to weigh very nearly a ton, and, fitted with two 80 h.p. Gnome engines, to have a speed of over 120 miles an hour.

- January 10, 1914

An aeroplane that cannot capsize, and yet flies at 150 miles an hour, that is the latest by Dr. Robiola, of Turin. What with that, and the automatically-stable machine produced by the Orville Wright factory, I really think I shall have to go in for my own brevet. Foolproof—that's what my machine will have to be, but I fear I shall have to get measured for it. I'm rather hard
to fit.

- January 24, 1914

A Security Competition.
The competition for safety devices for flying machines, organised by the Union pour la Securite en Aeroplane has drawn 56 entries, and included among them are the de Beer monoplane, Bleriot monoplane, Caudron biplane, Doutre stabiliser, R.E.P. machine (automatically stable longitudinally), Eteve stabiliser, Etrich monoplane, Dunne biplane, Moreau monoplane, Robiola machine, Schmidt biplane.

Kees
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Old 24 November 2009, 03:51 AM   #8
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About the name of the machine.

Attilo Robiola wrote a 30 page booklet with the title 'L'idroaeroplano Robiola : La Teoria di Edison in armonia coi principi ideati e applicati dal dott. Robiola', published in Pavia by Tip. Succ. Bizzoni, 1912.

He himself called the machine then Idroaeroplano

Addition

The Independant gives in 1914 that "A new model flying machine, the Robiola multiplane, is constructed on this principle. It is made entirely of metal, with six planes, one above another ....."

It may be that the pictures show the Robiola machine as a prototype in reduced scale

Unfortunately the whole article in the Independant is not available.

Kees
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Last edited by Varese2002; 24 November 2009 at 05:02 AM. Reason: Extra from the Independant
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Old 24 November 2009, 09:09 PM   #9
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Hello Kees

Thanks for the abundance of new information about the Robiola design! Thanks to Google Books, I have also found an item that had appeared in volume 22 of L'Aerophile, possibly in the issue dated 15th December 1914:
Multiplan Robiola

Il est entièrement métallique y compris les surfaces portantes. C'est un multiplan composé d'une multitude de surfaces planes métalliques, disposées en for de lance ou en triangle, à la façon des volées d'oiseaux migratuers, disposition qui diminue la resistance a l'avancement. Les manœuvres sont obtenues au moyen d'un volant qui par l'intermédiaire d'un servo-moteur modifie l'incidence de toute la voilure, dont la force portante varie, mais dans laquelle le centre de poussée reste pratiquement fixe. L'appareil est propulsé par deux moteurs Gnôme prêtés par le Gouvernement italien, en ...

There is additional text, but Google Books is conspiring to hide that from me! A rough, machine, translation supplies the following:
Robiola Multiplane

It is all metal including the bearing surfaces. It is a multiplane composed of a multitude of flat metal surfaces, arranged as an arrow or a triangle, the way flocks of migratory birds do, a provision which reduces the resistance to progress. The maneuvers are obtained through a flywheel through a servo-motor changes the impact of the whole wing, with bearing strength varies, but in which the central thrust remains virtually fixed. The aircraft is powered by two Gnome engines loaned by the Italian Government, in ...

The third sentence, about the flywheel, mystifies me somewhat, as I'm not exactly sure how it's meant to work. The 1912 patent doesn't cast much light onto the matter.

Cheers,
Paul

Last edited by aerohydro; 24 November 2009 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 24 November 2009, 09:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohydro View Post
Hello Kees

Thanks for the abundance of new information about the Robiola design! Thanks to Google Books, I have found the following item that appeared in volume 22 L'Aerophile, possibly in the issue dated 15th December 1914:
Multiplan Robiola

Il est entièrement métallique y compris les surfaces portantes. C'est un multiplan composé d'une multitude de surfaces planes métalliques, disposées en for de lance ou en triangle, à la façon des volées d'oiseaux migratuers, disposition qui diminue la resistance a l'avancement. Les manœuvres sont obtenues au moyen d'un volant qui par l'intermédiaire d'un servo-moteur modifie l'incidence de toute la voilure, dont la force portante varie, mais dans laquelle le centre de poussée reste pratiquement fixe. L'appareil est propulsé par deux moteurs Gnôme prêtés par le Gouvernement italien, en ...

The L'Aerophile article has more text, but Google Books is conspiring to hide that from me! A rough, machine, translation supplies the following:
Robiola Multiplane

It is all metal including the bearing surfaces. It is a multiplane composed of a multitude of flat metal surfaces, arranged as an arrow or a triangle, the way flocks of migratory birds do, a provision which reduces the resistance to progress. The maneuvers are obtained through a flywheel through a servo-motor changes the impact of the whole wing, with bearing strength varies, but in which the central thrust remains virtually fixed. The aircraft is powered by two Gnome engines loaned by the Italian Government, in ...

The third sentence, about the flywheel, mystifies me somewhat, as I'm not exactly sure how it's meant to work.

Cheers,
Paul
The French word 'volant' also means 'steering wheel'. When you take that connotation the sentence looks better like

Quote:
Les manœuvres sont obtenues au moyen d'un volant qui par l'intermédiaire d'un servo-moteur modifie l'incidence de toute la voilure, dont la force portante varie, mais dans laquelle le centre de poussée reste pratiquement fixe.
Translated it would be

Quote:
The incidence of the wing surfaces is controlled by a steering wheel which by the use of a servo-engine of variable force changes the lifting force but at all times places the centre of gravity in the center of the machine.
A complex construction, but the movement of the wing surfaces (all of them) by the steering wheel / servo combination, did only give more or less lift (as given in the patent) without making the machine unstable.

Dottore Robiola (he was a physician) has based his construction on his observation of birdflight. After his adventure with this aeroplane he seems to have quit aviation, but patents are given in the 1920's for engine designs.

Kees
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