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Other WWI Aviation Airfields, equipment, tactics, training, uniforms and all other WWI aviation topics

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Old 11 February 2011, 06:38 AM   #1
dglewwe
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Jasta 11 aircraft Feb-Mar 17

Not sure how much (if any) of this is correct...

Jasta 11 was eventually (Apr/May?) fully equipped with Albatros DIIIs.

MvR flew a Halberstadt DII during late February/early March.

According to "Under the Guns..." (Franks, et al) he also used a 'borrowed' DIII to score a victory on 9 March.


My questions:
How many Albatros were in the Jasta at this time? Would they have gone to, say, flight leaders only? Is it safe to assume that the majority (if not all) of the aircraft within a flight led by MvR would have been Halberstadts?

No earth-shattering importance...it's only for a game (scenario: 6 March 17) at the beginning of next month...but I figured if I can get it correct (or at least reasonably close) there's no reason not to make the effort - Don't want to do a "Flyboys" and use all red triplanes!

Thanks for the help.
don

Last edited by dglewwe; 11 February 2011 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 11 February 2011, 03:44 PM   #2
R Gannon
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Don

I think it would be fair to say Js 11 had 11 to 12 aircraft on hand, the majority of which would have been Alb DIII's. I'm going a little off the cuff here but I believe only one of MvR's victories this period can definately be said to be gained when flying a Halberstadt (2 Feb?).

According to German accounts, Js 11 was divided into two Kettes of four machines which MvR would lead on alternating patrols. However data from the other side of hill and his own CR's, show that Js 11 also flew patrols of 6-8 aircraft (two Kette strength).

Point of case 9 March - subject of a recent post with photo's of downed 40 Sqn FE8's - the six strong 40 Sqn patrol attempted to engage two EA scouts which were clearly operating in conjunction with six more higher up - who indeed did come down on the 40 Sqn patrol when they attempted to engage the lower two. What comes across in British reports, as a common tactic in regards encounters with Js 11 and indeed other Jastas.

Basically a lower Kette of two to three machines covered by 5 to 6 machines behind and 300m above. In part 'bait' and in part the ideal formation for which to attack recon aircraft - any more than three would get in each other's way. Indeed when MvR states in his CR's that he was flyng with one or two other pilots, I would strongly suggest he was leading the lower Kette and when he says four or five - he was leading the upper Kette.

Cheers Russ
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Last edited by R Gannon; 11 February 2011 at 03:48 PM. Reason: slight edit
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Old 12 February 2011, 05:41 AM   #3
dglewwe
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"...the majority of which would have been Alb DIII's...only one of MvR's victories this period can definately be said to be gained when flying a Halberstadt."


My source is "Under the Guns..." which lists a Halberstadt as MvR's aircraft for all scores made in Feb-March (#s 19-31) except for #25 on 9 March where he's said to have used Lubbert's Albatros. All other aircraft mentioned (when describing Jasta 11's activities) are Halberstadts.

I realize the perils of using a single reference. It's difficult for us 'small-fry' with limited libraries - that's why I pester the Forumites so much! I seem to recall an earlier post by Dan-San giving April or May as when the Jasta was fully equipped with the DIII's.

EDIT: found the post by Dan-San
"Jasta 11 did not get rid of their Halb.D.II and D.III machines until 4 April 1917. By 5 April 1917 Jasta 11 was completely equipped with the Alb.D.III."

To add to my confusion, the Aerodrome 'Aces' section lists the Albatros DII as MvR's aircraft for victories 19-24: this implies that the Jasta may have had that type on hand as well?


Like I said in the OP: This isn't for a book or model or painting that will be seen by lots of people, but I like to get things as accurate as I can when I put on a game...no point in promoting the 'Red Triplane all the time' myth.

Besides, the Halberstadt isn't available in my scale (1/300), so I had to scratch-build a kette and I feel the urge to use them if/when I can to justify the effort!

Last edited by dglewwe; 12 February 2011 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 12 February 2011, 10:47 AM   #4
dglewwe
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Sorry to be the one posting the most to my own thread .

It looks like I'll have time to run another scenario, and figured it would be good to do the action on 9 March - sort of a rematch thing. For his victory later that day MvR was in an Albatros DIII(Franks, et al), but I'm back to wondering what the rest of the Jasta were in (Halberstadts?...DIIs?...DIIIs?) when they got the best of 40 Squadron. The twin-gun Albatros make it seem more likely, perhaps?
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Old 12 February 2011, 11:19 AM   #5
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Hi Don,

I remembered a thread about Richthofen's Halberstadt, and was able to find it with a little searching:
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/ca...-markings.html

Perhaps the most informative post was by Greg vanW:
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/ca...tml#post273408
Particularly the statement:
Quote:
In the back of Ferko's "Richthofen" book, there is a listing of Halberstadts assigned to Jasta 11 up to 30 October 1916 (five D.Vs and one D.II) and another list of a/c supplied up to December 31, 1916 (1 D.II, four Hannover-built D.IIs, one D.III, 12 D.Vs) and eighteen different Halberstadts used up to February 28, 1917.
This suggests to me that they were flying at least some Halberstadts until the end of February. I don't know when they first received Albatrosses, or which models they received.

Steve
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Old 12 February 2011, 07:18 PM   #6
Gregvan
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Hi There,

We can be certain that Karl-Emil Schaefer was flying his Albatros D.III 2062/16 on 9 March 1917, when he brought down two FE8's of No. 40 Squadron. There are photos to prove it. I would imagine that the rest of Jasta 11 was equipped with Albatros D.III's by this date as well.

I believe that "Under the Guns of the Red Baron" is in error when ascribing most of MvR's victories from February-March as having been scored in Halberstadts.

On 24 January his 18th victory was scored in his red Albatros D.III, when his wing cracked. On 1 February he was flying a Halberstadt for his 19th victory.I'm pretty sure he was back to an Albatros by the time of his 20th victory on 14 February.

Greg
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