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Go Back   The Aerodrome Forum > No Man's Land > Pioneer Aviation


Pioneer Aviation Topics related to the aviators and aeroplanes prior to WWI

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Old 1 January 2012, 06:45 AM   #1
Rbailey
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Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft ID Challenge #397

Here is a cute little machine to start 2012.

Happy New Year everyone.

Scoreboard at the end of Challenge #396: Rudolph Kosch's Experimental machine for aerial navigation dating from 1896.

78.30 Rbailey
76.50 aerohydro
52.95 Varese2002
36.20 Aquilius
27.90 Rod_Filan
25.15 richard B
**************
(those above this section must wait 24 hours before answering)
**************
11.70 Tork1945
9.00 Doc
8.00 Airarticles
8.00 Lodzermensch
7.70 ermeio
7.30 matte_kudasai
7.30 YavorD
6.30 AnYun
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
5.00 sobrien
5.35 Froggy
**************
(those immediately above this section must wait 12 hours before answering.)
**************
4.20 Wind In The Wires
3.30 berman
3.00 joegertler
3.00 sodium
1.00 Catfish
1.00 dhc2pilot
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 Tripehound Flyboy
0.20 EricGoedkoop

Previous: Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge

The Rules:

1. The thread title must be "Breguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......".
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....).
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built.
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge.
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion).
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified.
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has received 5 (five) points, they belong to ROYALTY, and must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer. Once someone has achieved 25 (twentyfive) points, they must wait 24hrs after the original post before being able to post an answer.
10. In order to correctly identify the flying object, an answer must mention a characteristic of the design which has helped with its identification, or include a reference to a publication or website, which will confirm the attribution.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitrator in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.
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Old 2 January 2012, 02:09 PM   #2
Rod_Filan
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Looks Californian ...


HNY everyone!
Cheers
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Old 2 January 2012, 02:41 PM   #3
aerohydro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod_Filan View Post
Looks Californian ...
It's one of the craft that was at the 1910 Dominguez Air Meet. The caption to this photo indicates that it's the Eaton-Twining monoplane, but that's wrong. The Eaton-Twining is quite different, and does not feature the distinctive air-keel that this design does.

Still, here is a full listing of participants that were at the Air Meet. The mystery machine belongs to one of the men mentioned in that listing.

Ron - it's nice to see that you're starting out 2012 stepping outside of your usual stomping ground of South America and Italy!

Cheers,
Paul

Last edited by aerohydro; 2 January 2012 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 2 January 2012, 05:48 PM   #4
Rbailey
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Yes. Not Eaton-Twining, but one of those listed. Interesting error in that book.
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Old 4 January 2012, 06:23 AM   #5
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There are only about a dozen to choose from. But this may be trickier than I intended because another machine ascribed to the same name also shows up.
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Old 4 January 2012, 09:02 AM   #6
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Okay, okay ... the suspense is killing me...

This is the J.H. Klassen monoplane of 1909-1910; said to be have been a small machine comparable to the S-D Demoiselle. I recognize this challenge because I previously somehow identified it quite a while ago ... perhaps by its large "rudder" positioned above the centre of the wing. The Klassen monoplane did not fly, purportedly because of it not having a reliable engine fitted in time for the Dominguez Aviation Meet. The 'other machine' ascribed to this inventor is the Klassen Gyroplane No.1 - destroyed by fire at the meet (January 13 IIRC). According to the press, the Klassen monoplane was also damaged (although said repairable on-site) and only quick thinking by Paulan's ground crew and mechanics saved his Farman biplane from the flames. The Gyroplane No.1 was built and tested at Chute's Park, Los Angeles, so it would make sense that the monoplane was also constructed at the famous amusement park/LA Angels baseball club home-field.



Then again, I could be wrong.

Cheers
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Old 4 January 2012, 11:33 AM   #7
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Rod - you are right. But the other machine I was referring to was not his gyroplane, but another monoplane with a much different rear fuselage but a similar (but differently shaped) upper "keel". I don't know if it followed or preceded the challenge machine, or even if the assignment is correct (although two different builders in California at the same time with the same concept is unlikely).

Score later.
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Old 4 January 2012, 01:00 PM   #8
Tork1945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbailey View Post
Rod - you are right. But the other machine I was referring to was not his gyroplane, but another monoplane with a much different rear fuselage but a similar (but differently shaped) upper "keel". I don't know if it followed or preceded the challenge machine, or even if the assignment is correct (although two different builders in California at the same time with the same concept is unlikely).

Score later.
J.H. Klassen was a member ('officer') of the Aeroclub of California.

About his monoplane the following is given in Aeronautics April 1910 page 130
J. H. Klassen Monoplane.
One of the new machines on the Coast is that of J. H. Klassen. It is extraordinarily light, weighing only about 250 lbs. without operator. Chassis, three 20-inch wheel and skid combinations. Double covered planes 15 by 6 ft., 210 sq. ft. Curvature 2J/2 inches in 6 ft., arc of a circle. The planes are covered
with parafiine paper pasted upon cheesecloth, making a drum tight surface.
The power plant is a Curtiss 20 h. p. 4-cyl., air cooled motor, driving a 5 ft. 8 in. propeller, 20 degrees pitch, Holley carburetor, battery ignition. Lateral balance is expected to be had by the sidewise movement of a normally vertical fin placed at an angle from a point over the operator to a point above the motor. A rear vertical rudder operated by foot control.
The rear horizontal rudder, 3 1/2 by 8 ft., is controlled by lever operating wires over pulleys. The operator has a canvas seat. In a trial of the machine the motor did not develop sufficient speed even with the exceptionally small propeller surface.
Page 133 gives a picture of the J.H. Klassen monoplane, which shows a machine that is completely different from the Challenge picture.

Pictures of the J.H. Klassen monoplane are also in the book of Kenneth E. Pauley about the 1910 Los Angeles International Air Meet. This J.H. Klassen monoplane was present at the 1910 Meeting in Los Angeles.

There is even a picture of the fire (p. 43) which was caused by this machine as Klassen
.. fueled his monoplane and inadvertently left a gas can open on the chassis. As he started the engine, a spark ignited the fuel and set the muslin-covered wings of his just-completed monoplane on fire.
According to Aeronautics the Klassen Gyrocopter never progressed further than a scale model, which was also pictured in Aeronautics.

Given this evidence I don't think the Challenge machine has a relation with J.H. Klassen.

Interestingly there is the book on the 1910 Meeting a picture (p.45) which shows an assortment of flying machines, which were built in backyards, garages and alleys in Southern California.They were assembled outside the boundary.

The first plane in the row looks remarkable like the Challenge machine, although the rudder appears to be enlarged. Unfortunately the machines (constructions) are not identified in the book.

Tork1945
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Old 4 January 2012, 01:33 PM   #9
Rod_Filan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbailey
Rod - you are right. But the other machine I was referring to was not his gyroplane, but another monoplane with a much different rear fuselage but a similar (but differently shaped) upper "keel". ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tork
There is even a picture of the fire (p. 43) which was caused by this machine as Klassen
.. fueled his monoplane and inadvertently left a gas can open on the chassis. As he started the engine, a spark ignited the fuel and set the muslin-covered wings of his just-completed monoplane on fire.
According to Aeronautics the Klassen Gyrocopter never progressed further than a scale model, which was also pictured in Aeronautics.
This is all quite interesting. The photo I have of the completely burnt machine (poor newspaper photo) is most likely the second monoplane(!) as described above...definitely having an upper "keel". It doesn't look at all like the Gyroplane, which I have another newsphoto of, as its described to have been, seemingly completely built (a man is seated upon it); not looking at all like the burnt-out framework of what's supposed to be it...

Confused? I'll post the pics later this evening.


Cheers
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Old 4 January 2012, 03:39 PM   #10
Rbailey
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Rod probably saw this picture: http://www.earlyaeroplanes.com/archi....Domingeuz.jpg. I think it is certainly mis-identified, but it looks more like a 250 pound machine than the one pictured at Dominguez. I think I have the same pictures of the other version as Rod. The gyroplane was certainly full-size, and the burned machine isn't it or the challenge machine.

Very possibly it is the machine "outside the fence" mentioned by Tork. I don't have page 45 of that book.
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