The Aerodrome Home Page
Aces of WWI
Aircraft of WWI
Books and Film
The Aerodrome Forum
Help
Links to Other Sites
Medals and Decorations
Search The Aerodrome
Today in History


The Aerodrome Forum


Go Back   The Aerodrome Forum > Archives > 2000

2000 Closed threads from 2000 (read only)

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 1 November 2000, 06:54 AM   #1
Ed
Guest
 
Posts: n/a


Was there an advantage to using the
rotary engine over the standard radial
engine? It seems to me that the rotary
was quite troublesome to operate.
I don't think we guys wouldn't have
appreciated one of those things twirling
around in the engine compartment of our
M4 tank.
 
Old 1 November 2000, 08:09 AM   #2
Kory Clark
Guest
 
Posts: n/a

One thing i was wondering did all engines spew castor oil? Or were rotaries more prone?

In flight that gyroscopic movement might be a pain, but didn't it help the camel manuver to the right fast like a snake? Does one have the ability to take more damage?



 
Old 1 November 2000, 08:27 AM   #3
Brad
Forum Ace of Aces
 
Brad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Ft. Worth, Texas
Posts: 3,240

 
Hi The advantage to rotary's is the power to weight ratio. using largly steel components it was hard to beat in those days. Only rotary's spewed castoroil because they were the only engines using it.
__________________
Brad

No war for environmentalists! Drill here!

"My point is that KILLING BABIES ON PURPOSE IS NEVER OKAY. " - Craig

"Not even before they are born! " - ME

"Is nailing Jell-O to the wall productive?" - Barker
Brad is offline  
Old 1 November 2000, 08:42 AM   #4
Ron_F
Forum Ace
 
Ron_F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Bonney Lake, WA
Posts: 514

 
Right, the rotaries only used castor oil for cooling/lubrication of the engine parts. same as a 2 stroke dirt bike uses a mix of gas and oil for lube, even tho the rotaries were still 4 strokes.

the inlines were using coolant in radiators for cooling of the engines.

another forumite noted that a pilot flying behind a rotary could definately smell the castor oil trail it left, and i think mentioned in WW1 pilots could also tell if any rotaries had passed through due to the castor smell.

they produced more power for little wieght, and the gyro effects could help in turning, ala more so the Camel.

as far as damage, i guess it would be how much damage it took. if a cylinder was shot off on a rotary, it would make it out of balance and severely effect the operation of the plane. radials would just keep on going as they were stationary.

fwiw,
Ron
__________________
vbr,
Ron F.
aka Ronbo
Ron_F is offline  
Old 1 November 2000, 09:25 AM   #5
John L
Guest
 
Posts: n/a

The rotary engine in a Camel allowed quick maneuvers upward to the left, but often produced a "right dive" that many pilots could not pull out of if they were low.
In machining a LeRhone rotary engine, each cylinder started out as a 97 pound billet of nickel steel and ended up a 6.5 pound finished cylinder That left a lot of chips on the floor under the Warner and Swasey turret lathe.
In that no engineer had mastered the art of dynamic balance at this point in time, most engines were run out of balance (to the standards we understand today.) But, the rotary holds one first prize even to this day: It put out more torqe per pound than any other engine. Part of the beauty of a rotary was that it was its own flywheel.
Rotary radial engines were used in automobiles, at least one of which still exists in a car collection. They were obsolete by the end of the war, but many survived to this day.
Despite what Barrett and other "ex-spurts" say, it was a remarkable engine for its time and it allowed airframe designers a new latitude in design. Like any other engine it had its good and bad features. And, it helped the Nieuport 11 and Sopwith Pup, Camel and Snipe to make an impact on aeronautics of the Great War period.
 
Old 1 November 2000, 11:05 AM   #6
Ed
Guest
 
Posts: n/a


Thanks for all those replies guys. Oh!
One other oddity about those castor oil
burners-----the pilots swallowed a lot
of the atomized oil and I read that the
latrines were pretty busy after a flight!
 
Old 1 November 2000, 05:04 PM   #7
John L
Guest
 
Posts: n/a

They didn't always make it to a latrine.
 
Old 1 November 2000, 05:42 PM   #8
joegertler
Forum Ace
 
joegertler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South Boston Virginia
Posts: 1,256

 
The advantage in 1909-1918 of a rotary over a radial was cooling. Cooling of the barrels and heads of cylinders, and valves, was not sufficiently advanced in static radials until Lawrance and others came up with more sophisticated cooling fins, and materials after the war. Lawrance, of course, was reponsible for the Wright radials starting right after the war that could cool with efficiency and reliability. Prior to that,The turning of the entire engine at 1200 rpm or thereabouts directed enough air over the cylinders to get by. (But not by much)You will note earlier static radials such as the six cylinder and ten cylinder Anzanis, for example. and the earlier fan-type engines. cooling was a big problem for them in those days. could not compare to contemporary rotaries that competed.
__________________
WWI (and other) aviation artifacts, documents, photos & art at:
www.memaerobilia.com
joegertler is offline  
Old 1 November 2000, 07:28 PM   #9
Dan_San_Abbott
Rest in Peace
 
Dan_San_Abbott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Ceres, California
Posts: 9,118

 

My Gallery
Ed:
The reason they used castor oil in rotaries engineit was not diluted by the gasoline or benzin. Petrolum based oils would be diluted by the fuel and could not provide sufficient lubrication to the engine. Oil consumption to fuel was 1 liter of oil to 10 liters of fuel. The consumption was two fold under pressure through galleries in the engine and atomized and mixed with the fuel in the crankcase in order to lubricate the the rod , piston and rings which wound up going out the exhaust port.
Dan-San Abbott
Dan_San_Abbott is offline  
Old 1 November 2000, 10:39 PM   #10
Guest
 
Posts: n/a

This topic was discussed a few weeks ago and I'll repeat a couple of points which I hope are of interest: Imagine a single cylinder crank (a lawnmower?) bolted into a vise. If you reinstall the rod and piston assembly you can obviously get only a circular motion out of the piston. There is no way the piston can go "up-and-down": Therefore there is no reciprocal motion and all those reversals of direction which put tremendous inertial loads on the piston pins and bottom ends of a conventional engine simply don't occur. Wrist pin failures and "big end" failures which all too frequently disable conventional engines are obviously not an issue: this in itself is a marvelous engineering aspect of the old classic rotaries. If the motion of the reciprocal nature isn't present you don't have to "balance it out". This means you need no heavy counterweights on the crankshaft. This absence of any balancing weight in the crank assembly is the reason the unit is significantly lighter than a radial of the same dimensions. Again a fundamental advantage to the engines of this nature. As re. "castor oil". It is not at all needed. Jim Appleby is a foremost authority around on the "rotaries". He never uses any thing other than Shell Aviation 60 with 10% STP. Moreover, castor oil will "glue up" a infrequently used engine so use of it has that added disadvantage. Modern two-stroke engines mix lubricant with fuel and don't require castor oil: Accordingly neither do the antique rotaries now running.
The "Camel" due to it's own airframe configuration, was a difficult airplane to control. Many a/c which had the rotaries were not difficult and in many cases were a delight to fly.
A friend of mine, Tony Capozzi, is tooling up for a 80 Le Rhone project. We took the finished carb to the Appleby's last week and will be going again shortly to install it and run it on one of Jim's engines.

For DSA: Tony and I will quite likely be going up for the Flayderman auction so will get together with you prior to the event. I'll e-mail you as soon as things firm up. VBR. Lee
 
 

Bookmarks

Tags
rotary, engine, standard, radial


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
use for Rotec radial engine baldeagle Replica Aircraft 8 6 August 2006 12:43 PM
Continental 670 Radial Engine CORVUS Replica Aircraft 14 30 August 2005 04:58 PM
Cox radial engine conversions Roundel Flying Models 6 19 July 2005 07:44 PM
Inventor of the Rotary and Radial engines leo 2001 16 5 March 2001 02:34 AM
Rotary or radial? Rich 2000 9 7 October 2000 09:02 AM


As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1997 - 2023 The Aerodrome