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Old 16 August 2002, 05:46 AM   #1
wingedwarrior
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Hello,

There has been much discusion about certain pilots being untruthful, kills granted without witnesses, OOC claims being misleading, etc. I was wondering which ace(s) do my fellow forumites feel had the most authentic scores. Reasoning could be for corresponding losses, the pilot's reputation, combat reports or just "gut feeling".
Kory, please don't think I'm trying to take attention away from your thread. I find it very interesting and worthwhile. I just may learn a few things from all of you!

regards
 
Old 16 August 2002, 07:56 AM   #2
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No problem

I think MvR's 81 official Victories are among the most documented and confirmed.

Empire aces...it seems to be McCudden has the most "Confirmable" with current resources.

French side I think it was mentioned many of Guynemer's victories can also be confirmed in the year 2002.

Gut feeling? Mick Mannock...he seems the sort of fellow who would follow them "all the way down burning" and "make sure of the passengers".
 
Old 16 August 2002, 09:14 PM   #3
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I've always figured that Rickenbacker's were pretty well documented, but this is more of a "gut feeling" than the result of any hard research.

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Old 20 August 2002, 04:24 PM   #4
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EVR's scores are well documented in that he wrote fairly detailed accounts. However, a close reading of his combat reports indicates that he probably destroyed 9 airborne (3 balloons) and 2 grounded balloons. He was credited with 10 OOCs and other categories such as "e/a dived east" and "Fokker last seen in vertical bank." I think that about 5 of his 26 have been identified.
We've been across this part of No Man's land before, but I'll hasten to say that his credits--however tenuous many appear today--were accepted in context of the USAS system at the time. That's why it's just about impossible to compare Great War victories to those of later events.
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Old 20 August 2002, 08:10 PM   #5
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Quote:
EVR's scores are well documented in that he wrote fairly detailed accounts. However, a close reading of his combat reports indicates that he probably destroyed 9 airborne (3 balloons) and 2 grounded balloons. He was credited with 10 OOCs and other categories such as "e/a dived east" and "Fokker last seen in vertical bank." I think that about 5 of his 26 have been identified.
We've been across this part of No Man's land before, but I'll hasten to say that his credits--however tenuous many appear today--were accepted in context of the USAS system at the time. That's why it's just about impossible to compare Great War victories to those of later events.
Barrett,

Thanks for the post. Reading carefully, you seem to say that a thorough reading of EVR's record would yield nine absolutely confirmed kills. Six planes and three balloons. Right?

(I've gotta point out that I really wouldn't care much if he'd only had 3 unconfirmed kills to his credit -- he was still a remarkable man who had remarkable accomplishments.)
I'm kinda puzzled by your comment that only five of his kills were identified. What do you mean? Were only those five corraborated by German records or seen by people on the ground?

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Old 21 August 2002, 02:54 PM   #6
Barrett
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Yup, 5 of EVR's opponents have been identified after the fact, to wit:

No. 2 Jasta 64
No. 14 Hannover captured (no unit cited)
No. 19 Jasta 64
No. 23 Jasta 15 pilot WIA, a/c evidently survived
No. 24 Jasta 19 pilot, POW

There's little doubt about the balloons (3 air, 2 ground), but most German records have not survived.
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Old 23 August 2002, 09:04 PM   #7
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Previously Barrett wrote: *
There's little doubt about the balloons (3 air, 2 ground), but most German records have not survived.

THERE!!! *

VBR,

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Old 24 August 2002, 08:08 AM   #8
Barrett
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Uh, that's most BALLOON records that haven't survived. I don't know about the survival ratio of flying units.
A revisiting of EVR's combat reports prompts an upgrade: being generous, it's possible he downed 9 airborne targets plus the 2 grounded balloons. As noted before, the balance are OOC, dived east, vertical bank, etc.
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Old 26 August 2002, 06:50 AM   #9
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Anyone know precisely which months of German Records WERE lost. I know sept/oct 1918 is basically a wash...any other "known" missing months?
 
Old 31 August 2002, 02:40 PM   #10
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Hi

To say that most Greman reports has been complete lost is WRONG in my meaning. A lot of these are still locked down in German archives... :'(

The German Army and many Army Corps reports were already micro filmed by the American for over 80 years ago..

The problem is that NO ONE have read them, perhaps the Americans cant handle the language or they are afraid of the result of these reports..??

The Army reports contain very vital information(I have read some of them) like for a example, a certain day in October 1918 one of our Fighters was shot down in No Mans land and the pilot got safely back. However these reports seldom contains actual names...
Another example could be that four of our balloons within a certain area were attacked and one was damaged..etc..etc

The Army Corps reports are even more detailed...

The German statistic of losses are also nearly 100 % correct, the problem is to break it down to day by day basis. The book CGAS has started this project in a public way. But I am convinced that some German historians could add a lot of material regarding this.

I would say that the most difficult period to clear up is the early period 1914 until mid 1915...

The sad thing is that either NO ONE seems to have read the allied equivalent....I would thought it would easier for example to read English texts..

8)
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