Gunslinger Triplanes

[StephenLawson]

Since the other topic was so successful how about some shared information on the various two gunned versions. To start how about N533. The other 'Black Maria.' For new comers to the forum around the turn of the century a 'Black Maria' was a police or Scotland Yard Q-Car. This vehicle had a larger horse power motor, some armour/ pig iron plating. Ammunition storage bins, heavy duty tires and a modified heavy suspension. Raymond Collishaw flew two Sopwith Triplanes marke with the name 'Black Maria.' If we are to believe the caption in the Datafile he flew this two gunned version in combat successfully. Other than some rearranging of the instruments on the dash panel there were evidently two round counters mounted centrally on an extention of the dash panel between the guns. On the underside of the single ginned version there appears to be an opening for the mouth of an empty cartidge chute. Was this modified for the two guuned version? Does this opening serve another function? Do we know if the horse power was increaszed for these two gunned versions to compensate for the added weight?

[MikeW]

OK,

There were 6 twin gun triplanes manufactured by sub-contractors Clayton & Shuttleworth, 3 by Oakley, and one "special" which had a gun installation under a hump (like the camel) knocked up by Sopwiths.

Only four of the C&S machines saw combat, 2 with Naval 10, 1 with Naval 1, and 1 with the Manston War Flight.

The Manston machine shot its propeller off.

The Naval 1 machine was flown by a couple of their minor aces for some time without result, it was then flown by Dallas once and he made a claim in it.

Of the 2 Naval 10 machines, Collishaw flew it for several weeks suffering gun problems every flight, then he made two claims on one patrol. It was then flown by Mel Alexander who hated it, and it quickly ended up as the CO's hack. The other machine was flown by Nick Carter who also hated it, and it was passed downwards, and fairly soon ended up getting shot down.


The three Oakley machines were subtly different and can be identified by the ovular access panels on the side cladding. This were "disarmed" almost immediately and initially served in the Manston War School. They ended up at different training establishments, Marske, Sedgeford, and Shoreham. One of them miraculously survived and is in the RAF Museum.


The Sopwith machine spent its life at the Isle of Grain Armament Experimental Station - I'm still looking for the test reports.


The gun installations were somewhat different, different mounting brackets, doubling up on cartridge chutes, and ammunition feed/bins. A totally different synchronisation system was used, Sopwith Kauper as opposed to Scarfe-Dibovski on the single gun.

According to the Sopwith drawings, the engines would appear to have been the normal 130 hp Clerget - Yes I know the machine in the Hendon museum has the long stroke Clerget, but this engine was fitted much later during one of its many restorations. I can dig out the paperwork and tell you exactly when if you don't believe me.

There was NO more armour plate on the twin gun machine than there was on the single gun machine - if you can call "bullet proof steel", which was specified for the seat and the fuel tank, as armour plating.

Collishaw thought the two guns were worth the performance "hit", most of the other pilots didn't agree. I would say that both Collishaw and Dallas were so aggressive that they would have scored in whatever they flew.

[Ginger.]

Mike,
the two pilots you mention, did they hate them because of the dip in performance due to the added weight of the second weapon?

[MikeW]

Hi Ginger,

yes, the rate of climb took a hit as did the general responsiveness, don't forget it wasn't just an extra Vickers Gun, there was another 450 rounds of ammunition, another spent cartridge chute, another feed chute and storage bin, extra bracketry at the front end, and an extra set of rods and springs and things for the gun synchronisation.

I don't think Collishaw cared, he just wanted a machine that would get him close enough to use his guns, Mel Alexander and Nick Carter were much more "careful" than Collishaw, they wanted to get into an engagement holding the advantage - I suppose that's why Collishaw racked up such a vast score at the expense of getting shot down a couple of times, whilst the other two notchched up respectable scores whilst looking after their machines and their own skins.

Mike

[StephenLawson]

MikeW; Most impressive. Were differing fuel tanks experimented with on these airframes? Is Handingham's book reliable with dates?

[MikeW]

Steven,

Evan Haddingham's book is most remarkable because of his age when he produced the book - a teenager at the time I believe. He does repeat a few incorrect statements but on the whole it's an interesting book. He's still around working in TV in the States I believe.

Which dates did you have in mind?



Regarding the fuel tank, the only differences that I am aware of were the two prototypes, these had smaller tanks, without baffles, and both were unpressurised. I am surprised the prototypes received such an ovation when the reports state that they suffered from fuel surge and starvation during hectic manoeuvres. Their merit was obviously seen, despite the difficulties, and Sopwiths obviously listened to the criticism and rectified the shortcomings.

The gas tank and the oil tank were plumber's nightmares - the fuel tank sat above the oil tank, so the oil filler had to pass up through the fuel tank. Similarly, the sump for the fuel tank had to pass down through the oil tank.

Mike